Coyotes and Deer

[westcliffe01]

Robert, have you ever set up trail cameras in the vicinity of the pens at night ? Most of your visitors will be at night. Daytime is the exception to the rule, and usually means that the coyotes have determined that showing up in the daytime goes unchallenged. It also sounds like you have good fencing, which most livestock operations do not. Usually, fences are made to comply with legal definitions, which in some cases may be 3 strands of barbed wire. The sheep farm I was at originally had welded mesh type fencing but most of it is over 50 years old and in bad shape and a lot of fixes have been done with high tensile wire and that neither keeps sheep in nor predators out.

We have only ever had one coyote come up to our pens (that we have seen at least) and it came to the fawn pen. Couldn't get in and was peppered with a shot shell for even coming up this close.

 

[Robert_in_NY]

Robert, have you ever set up trail cameras in the vicinity of the pens at night ? Most of your visitors will be at night. Daytime is the exception to the rule, and usually means that the coyotes have determined that showing up in the daytime goes unchallenged. It also sounds like you have good fencing, which most livestock operations do not. Usually, fences are made to comply with legal definitions, which in some cases may be 3 strands of barbed wire. The sheep farm I was at originally had welded mesh type fencing but most of it is over 50 years old and in bad shape and a lot of fixes have been done with high tensile wire and that neither keeps sheep in nor predators out.

Never had the cameras set near the fence but when we do find the occasional track you can see the dog/coyote doesn't even flinch. It walks past the pens and continues on its way. The cameras we have had set up on deer trails have never caught any coyote images. The fawn pen is behind my parents house and we have two pens between my parents house and mine as well as pens at my grandfathers house and out back on our property out of sight. The furthest pens away are where we occasionally see tracks but again, they never bother the fence, they use the path between the creek and the fence (just big enough to drive a 50 horse tractor through) and continue on their way to a 6 acre field and then on to the woods. Dogs have been the most trouble some just because to them deer are something to chase. We have had issues with dogs at our house and my grand fathers place. Our fences are 9' tall and are woven wire starting at 2" horizontal spacing on the bottom getting wider up to 4' high then it is 6" the rest of the way to 8' with a single strand at 9' high. The vertical wires are every 6". We set the wire tight to the ground have have posts ever 15' and have two stakes between each posts to hold the wire down. One trick I learned is to not keep the grass killed/mowed around the bottom of the fence. I use weed spray once ever couple years to keep the brush down but the grass actually helps keep the wire held down. One thing I have noticed with the dog incidents is the dog will run around the pen instead of trying to go through, as they run around the deer take the straight route to the furthest point away from the dogs. They always try to run around, not through or under. However, if a deer had died and is laying near the fence I could see a predator taking the time to dig under the fence to get to it but again, this comes down to taking care of the animals and pens. We check on our animals daily and our fences all the time. It is just how I was raised, you walk by always looking at the posts and wire and you notice problems when you pay attention. I just found a broken post tonight, coming back from the tower I walked by the pen and noticed a post angled different and it has broke just below ground level. Tomorrow a new post will be installed and no problems will develop.

 

[Bigfoot62]

We have a lot of coyotes here. And there seems to be a lot of coyote mythology out there. . .

Plenty of farmers claim that the coyotes eat calves. . .

The local biologist says coyotes primarily eat mice and rabbits. They say . . . They say they do not hunt in packs. They say . . .

First of all, most "local biologists" are not farmers and don't have a clue what farmers have seen. I would suggest a great many of them have a whole lot of "book learning" and not much else. (like practical experience)

I have seen coyotes try to get to a newborn calf. Would they have been successful? Don't know. They scattered after I shot one of them. (They absolutely will attack other animals in a pack)

Just this year, one in Feb and one in Sept, I've shot coyotes that were attacking one of my goats. These were not kids, not sick, not crippled, etc. Healthy, normal, adult goats. Both coyotes were large males, working alone. But, interestingly enough, it was daylight (mid-morning) and they were out in the wide open.

I'm guessing your "local biologist" would have an explanation for that too.

Personally, I take the word of the "local biologist" with a grain of salt.
For instance:
for years, the La Dept of Wildlife denied the existence of cougars in La. Now, they are a "proctected" species. Go figure.

 

[Biggreenavalanche]

First of all, most "local biologists" are not farmers and don't have a clue what farmers have seen. I would suggest a great many of them have a whole lot of "book learning" and not much else. (like practical experience)

I have seen coyotes try to get to a newborn calf. Would they have been successful? Don't know. They scattered after I shot one of them. (They absolutely will attack other animals in a pack)

Just this year, one in Feb and one in Sept, I've shot coyotes that were attacking one of my goats. These were not kids, not sick, not crippled, etc. Healthy, normal, adult goats. Both coyotes were large males, working alone. But, interestingly enough, it was daylight (mid-morning) and they were out in the wide open.

I'm guessing your "local biologist" would have an explanation for that too.

Personally, I take the word of the "local biologist" with a grain of salt.
For instance:
for years, the La Dept of Wildlife denied the existence of cougars in La. Now, they are a "proctected" species. Go figure.

Not only was their existence denied but I captured a photo on deer cam of a cougar, the local biologist said it was an oversized bobcat ( with a four foot tail) ... Not long after that a cougar was shot in city limits ! Kind hard to deny them after that !!!

 

[tractchores]

I've had some interactions with coyotes. In the NE they can get quite large. Growing up deer hunting I had 2 run-ins with them when lost after dark. Both times there were 2 - 4 of them and they stayed just out of flashlight range (basically a pen-light) and yipped to each other all around me as I found my way out of the woods, I was armed, but it sure did make me nervous. I just happened to be around when they were and I'm not sure if they were curious or being aggressive.

On my property now I've got a large rodent population and a large predator population, including a small group of coyotes. The coyotes are not hunted and their population has been very stable over the last 5 years. They're VERY wary of people, but I see them on my trail camera regularly and they have a pretty standard schedule. We've also got a large deer population, though I haven't seen them actually capture or kill a deer that I know of and virtually all the fawns I see in spring make it to winter.

The only time I've seen one chase a deer was a small yearling. I was ice fishing on my lake and heard something coming from shore. The deer runs out onto the ice and comes straight for me, I thought she was going to run me over, but she ran about 10' from me and kept going, about 100' behind her a coyote comes out of the woods. It looked pretty tired and trotted probably to within 50' of me and then I started towards it and yelled and it ran back into the woods. The deer didn't seem too tired and kept on going up on the hill where it started browsing again. I think it was using me as a defense knowing the coyote wouldn't come by me. I've seen them huddle close to the house at night too when I hear coyotes howling in the woods, but that could just be coincidence. I guess in my case I'm happy its a stable population and scared of people and I'll just keep a close eye on my pets and chase them off if I see them.

 

[Beltzington]

Good discussion and glad to read others think about this, I must have gotten soft in my old age but it makes me sad to see any wild creature killed for no reason. Live and let live is a philosophy I apply as I can. I don’t kill spiders or snakes unless they pose a direct danger to life and limb. Hunt for food awesome, protect life and property as required but to justify killing coyotes to protect deer herds is ludicrous. Even if there where substantial evidence of excessive deer predation, which there isn’t, has anybody heard of a deer shortage in the last 20-years? This argument is typically initiated by a bored stand hunter who feels the need to shoot at something. Personnel safety, really? I have a 60lb mixed breed dog with an attitude and I have no doubts who would win an argument should she decide to break bad. Yotes are an unprotected species, if someone enjoys the challenge of hunting them or they just enjoy the killing they should cowboy up and say so. Personally I would greatly miss the sounds of a pack hunting or a lone howl, makes me feel alive. Rant over.

 

[westcliffe01]

The farmer I mentioned made a substantial financial loss due to coyotes.

In Michigan, coyotes are a "game" species. There is a specific season to hunt them, including a short night hunting season. You have to buy a small game license. There are several months of the year when they are off limits. Only farmers and "designated representatives" are permitted to shoot them year round on private property "when doing or about to do damage". The fact is that with them being mainly nocturnal and a ban on nocturnal hunting for most of the year and on top of that a rimfire only restriction at night, and it has to be clear that no amount of legal hunting is ever going to make a dent in their population. The only thing one can hope to achieve is to discourage them re-entering the property after their first encounter with you.

Dealing with these predators is very labor intensive. Trapping cannot be used in the presence of livestock without causing a lot of collateral damage. In residential areas, liberal town councils have enacted shooting prohibitions. I actually have a bigger coyote problem in my neighborhood than the farmer currently has. I have to escort my dogs when they go outside at night since we now regularly see coyotes within a short distance of homes. Frankly, these liberal tree hugging laws and predators are on a collision course. People are going to start dying and already the attacks in California are on the rise (the most liberal of states). When that has gone too far, then I imagine we will start seeing them being shot from helicopters like they do in Texas, except it will all be gov employees.

Man has always put predators in their place and made sure they understood they were not welcome near people or domestic animals. That is really all that we need. I don't care what the coyote does in the woods as long as the livestock are safe, as well as our kids and domestic animals. If the coyotes cross the line and venture into our space, they either need to die or learn not to come back.

 

[Lou66]

I have a rugur 17 magnum rim fire with a simmons scope that I carry with me in the John Deere Gator,, not the best of rifles and not the worse of four wheelers.. But we get the job done when it comes to coyotes.. at two hundred yards they always stop to look back to see if I am following.. wrong decision for them.. buzzards got to eat just like worms.. I have barn cats that take care of the rodents and they don稚 mess with my livestock.. Lou

 

[N80]

A couple of thoughts about some of the replies above.

First, the local biologist I was referring to is actually local (lives and owns land near my place and my BIL's ranch), is also a cattle farmer, is a lifelong and superb hunter, breeds and trains high end bird dogs and has over 20 years of field experience. This is not to argue that he is right about coyotes, but he most definitely does not fit the suggested stereotype of unexperienced college kid.

Second, there is often method and proof in organized studies and there is almost always an element of legend and myth in the typical "a farmer a friend of mine knows saw a pack of coyotes steal a pick-up truck with his wife in it" stories.

Third, I have huge respect for wildlife. But the truth of the matter is that the value of any species is determined by what humans determine their value to be...think mosquitos vs Pandas. Currently, because of their propensity to do damage to livestock, game and other valued native species, coyotes have 'negative value' for most people concerned. I have no problem with that and will kill every coyote I have an opportunity to kill. I will try to do it as humanely as I would a respected game species. Fortunately in SC coyotes are unprotected as far (as I know). I think they are treated the same way as feral pigs, you can kill them anywhere it is legal to shoot, at any time of day and with whatever weapon you wish to use.

 

[cqaigy2]

While growing up i worked on farms/ranches. During the time i worked on them, our biggest problem with predation or damage was from dogs packing up. Recently we had coyotes trap a deer in the canyon and kill it. You could hear the coyotes yipping and the deer screaming. Maybe out west here, they are less aggressive.