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  1. #61
    Platinum Member westcliffe01's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coyotes and Deer

    So here is the issue: We had a massive EHD outbreak in MI this year and over 10 000 reported dead deer in Southern Michigan. When a predator species builds up based on prey availability and then one has an external factor like this remove a significant part of the food chain within a matter of weeks (the meat spoils in days because of our abnormally high temperatures) then one can anticipate problems later in the season when overall food supplies become more scarce. Its like what happens when sugar cane is harvested, first they burn it and all the animals pour out of thousands of acres of plantation. Then a couple of days later it is harvested and there is nothing left to support the critters. Thats when they descend on your animal feed and into your barn. I experienced this first hand on my uncles homestead in South Africa which was surrounded by thousands of acres of sugar cane plantation.

  2. #62
    Veteran Member tungularafishcamp's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coyotes and Deer

    I bet releasing a live wolf out of a leg hold trap is a hoot! not
    Rick

  3. #63
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    Default Re: Coyotes and Deer

    This thread has gotten way off track, but that's what makes it fun to read. I find the idea that humans have to 'maintain' balance in nature to be laughable and every time we try to do it we mess it up. Natural systems are extremely complex and not that well understood by us. For better or worse we're a species that has a profound effect on our surroundings, which changes the environment around us in big ways (for better or worse depends on what species you are). Think about what happens if you clear brush, you've removed habitat and something is going to suffer and something else is going to thrive. I for one don't believe in random predator control, we don't know enough to understand our real effects and virtually always get it wrong.

    If anyone wants a good example of what happens when you simply leave land alone take a look at what happened in the Chernobyl exclusion zone, its apparently now thriving with wildlife and species that struggle in other areas.

  4. #64
    Super Member dave1949's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coyotes and Deer

    N80 George,

    By your way of looking at things, any one thing said that is a generalization with an exception means it is all just wrong. You said small pox was virus we eliminated, you were wrong. You generalized and then rationalized your wrongness. Too bad you don't hold yourself to your own standards. I will stand by my generalization about liberals, today's conservatives, and conservation because it is true far more often than not.

    Skeptics blast study making energy claims | The Portland Press Herald / Maine Sunday Telegram
    This article, current, not resting on past laurels of conservatives gone by, is a case in point. These are not liberals who fund fictitious studies and then try to pass them off as something they are not to legislators all over the country. Since you are not equipped to identify harm, I am sure you are willing to live with the consequences because Solyndra did not succeed as an investment in green energy. That is the way your logic works, by the way. You don't care that only 8% of the energy projects funded by stimulus monies through the DOE failed, because only one matters to you apparently.

    Here are some more conservatives at work: 200 Groups Object to Lead-poisoning Provision in Sportsmen's Bill
    “Why would the Senate bow to the National Rifle Association’s anti-science views on lead poisoning and pass a special-interest legal exemption to promote further lead poisoning?” said Snape. “The amendment offered by Senator Boxer would actually establish a moratorium on any regulation of lead in ammunition or fishing sinkers until federal health and environment agencies prepare an objective study that all Americans could trust.”


    Did you read the about the laws that outlawed market hunting, laws about bag limits? Those were huge contributors to the restoration of game that had been decimated by earlier people who also thought they understood nature and God.

    The eastern forests were largely clear cut which made it difficult for many animals to survive, and caused massive erosion limiting the ability for natural reforestation. Many of New England's rivers have still not fully recovered from the early logging practices. What we are really talking about is over-hunting coupled with extreme habitat loss. The rivers are still being rebuilt and stocked where native fish populations formerly existed. I don't take anything away from orgs like Trout Unlimited in those efforts, but I don't see that as a triumph of conservatism either. To make those programs work, regulations about what can and can't be done in a river are necessary. Who would be in the way of that regulation? A liberal? Generally not, George.

    It was a NH man in the logging industry who finally realized what had to be done, and that began the basis for healing the forests. A deer herd is naturally going to benefit from lots of new growth forest. They still do today in newly harvested areas. The deer would have found their way back to that territory and thrived with or without help. It's certainly nice that groups promoted it and perhaps accelerated the process, but I doubt their motives were entirely altruistic.

    If you truly cannot define harm from regulated permitted activities, here is an idea: Get your drinking water downstream from some mine tailings, give some to your family, you can have all the dead fish to eat also, you will want for nothing. Or, go hunting in the bottom of an open pit mine, there's no harm there right? You are making silly statements about harm and no harm, Exxon and Sierra.

    Of course there is no such thing as a free lunch, or resources without harm. But there are certainly better choices, and choices that do not downstream the costs and liabilities of poor choices by greedy people. Any time an effort is made to put real monetary values on those poor choices, it is generally one of today's conservatives who will fight it because it gets in the way of short-term profits.

    Where would Ducks Unlimited be without the work of many biologists and environmentalists? Environmentalist is pretty much a dirty word to today's conservatives, you see it here in this forum: "the enviros" did this or that. "The EPA is destroying the country." Generally speaking, these are today's conservatives. Do you really think the Clean Water Act, signed by Nixon, could pass in today's House of Representatives? Who loves to hate Rachael Carson? You cannot restore and protect wildlife without knowledge.

    I certainly don't agree with everything any liberal says or does, but in general, I know that I disagree with most of what today's (self-described) conservatives are promoting.

    George, you are defending the indefensible, and calling on God isn't going to change that.
    "Those were the days my friend, we thought they'd never end ..."
    When there is a huge solar energy spill, it is called a "nice day"!

  5. #65
    Veteran Member Tororider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tungularafishcamp
    I bet releasing a live wolf out of a leg hold trap is a hoot! not
    I was thinking the same thing.
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  6. #66
    Platinum Member westcliffe01's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coyotes and Deer

    Yes, notably that zone specifically precludes ANY people, their roads, anyone living there or having livestock etc.

    As long as people continue to occupy the landscape, management is essential. Elk being a good positive example and the re-introduction of wolves into areas OUTSIDE Yellowstone being the bad example. Elk populations in the affected states is now crashing and the states are going to lose a huge amount of money on revenues that were associated with elk hunting. Hence all the lawsuits about managing the wolf population to bring back stability. Those against the control of the wolf population typically don't understand how the hunting system works, that a hunter needs a tag or that tags are based on population quotas in specific areas. Try having that conversation with anti wolf people and you will get a profound display of ignorance regarding virtually all hunting regulations.

    Your comment is actually at the center of this issue. If we were all to line up and commit suicide, then I am sure the animals will figure out how to take care of themselves. But as long as we remain in the picture, and the entire global economic model is based on population growth, and as long as people continue in the tradition of raising large families for whatever reason, the utopia of wildlife being left to their own devices will not fly. In africa one has the same problem with elephant where they will permanently damage the habitat, not only for themselves, but all the other animals if their population is not kept in check.

    Quote Originally Posted by tractchores View Post
    If anyone wants a good example of what happens when you simply leave land alone take a look at what happened in the Chernobyl exclusion zone, its apparently now thriving with wildlife and species that struggle in other areas.

  7. #67
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    Default Re: Coyotes and Deer

    Quote Originally Posted by N80 View Post
    YOU are the one that made the blanket statement the liberals are the only force for care for the planet and its wildlife. Remember?
    I said that?? I made no such blanket statement.

    Quote Originally Posted by N80 View Post
    Anyway, you and I have pretty much ruined this thread. If you would like to discuss this privately I'm more than happy and able to.
    Nah-- I don't think anything was ruined. Pretty mild I'd say compared to some of the sentiments I've read elsewhere.

  8. #68
    New Member Gerold's Avatar
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    I saw a program on PBS a while back on Yellowstone. Without wolves the elk overgrazed severely and destoyed all the willow and other wetland shrubs. Beaver and beaverponds disappeared and all the small game associated with them. When the wolves were reintroduced that controlled the elk. Beavers had their willows, birch, and other young trees. New ponds got built, small game moved in. In short controlling the elk had a ripple effect resulting in a much more diverse habitat for many animals. If you just want to consider only what is good for elk hunters then maybe wolves are bad, but trout fishing, small game and bird hunting all improved. Elk and wolves, deer and coyotes have all lived quite well without man needing to 'manage' one over the other...

  9. #69
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    Default Re: Coyotes and Deer

    Quote Originally Posted by westcliffe01 View Post
    Yes, notably that zone specifically precludes ANY people, their roads, anyone living there or having livestock etc.

    As long as people continue to occupy the landscape, management is essential. Elk being a good positive example and the re-introduction of wolves into areas OUTSIDE Yellowstone being the bad example. Elk populations in the affected states is now crashing and the states are going to lose a huge amount of money on revenues that were associated with elk hunting. Hence all the lawsuits about managing the wolf population to bring back stability. Those against the control of the wolf population typically don't understand how the hunting system works, that a hunter needs a tag or that tags are based on population quotas in specific areas. Try having that conversation with anti wolf people and you will get a profound display of ignorance regarding virtually all hunting regulations.

    Your comment is actually at the center of this issue. If we were all to line up and commit suicide, then I am sure the animals will figure out how to take care of themselves. But as long as we remain in the picture, and the entire global economic model is based on population growth, and as long as people continue in the tradition of raising large families for whatever reason, the utopia of wildlife being left to their own devices will not fly. In africa one has the same problem with elephant where they will permanently damage the habitat, not only for themselves, but all the other animals if their population is not kept in check.
    This might be against some kind of internet forum rule, but I agree with most of what you're saying. I'm a hunter myself. I'm certainly not advocating that we all make a hasty exit from the planet somehow, just that nature does just fine in the absence of people. It will manage itself. When we 'manage' nature we're actually not helping it (it doesn't need our help), we're simply altering it for our own uses. Personally I believe in some cases this is good (I'm glad I don't have packs of wolves to fend off or big cats to eat me) and in some cases I think its bad (when it benefits a small group of people with short term goals i.e. quick money).

    For better or worse we've vastly altered the environments we live in and trying to restore them to the 'way they were' is impossible as long as we're present. That's one of the reason I think we've seen so many issues with re-introduction of wolves in areas where there are people.

  10. #70
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    Default Re: Coyotes and Deer

    Excellent and well thought out points.

    Quote Originally Posted by dave1949 View Post
    Environmentalist is pretty much a dirty word to today's conservatives, you see it here in this forum: "the enviros" did this or that. "The EPA is destroying the country." Generally speaking, these are today's conservatives.
    I'd like to think that these kinds of positions are primarily put forward by the lunatic, far right wing elements of the conservative agenda. The "Drill Baby Drill" crowd if you will, and that these folks have a voice FAR exceeding their actual numbers. Kind of flies in the face of the liberal media myths...

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