MF1433V
Gold Member
Yes we know who you are...you already made that clear.
Here is what not to do or say if you shoot a burglar...geeez !
- Thread starter brin
- Start date
Yes we know who you are...you already made that clear.
greasemonkeyok
Veteran Member
That may be how you feel, but that certainly ain't the law in Oklahoma.
For almost identical circumstances, read about the pharmacist Ersland now doing time for murder:
Oklahoma pharmacist files appeal of murder conviction | NewsOK.com
Ersland's statements indicated he actually thought he was a hero after the shooting. If you are the shooter and you say "they deserved what they got", that statement can be used against you.
I know others on this forum believe you should call 911 and keep talking until the police arrive. But the new appellate lawyer for Ersland advises that you simply call 911, give them the address, tell them there has been a shooting, hang up, and SHUT UP.
hawkeye08
Elite Member
I don't know all the circumstances, but seems like he was bragging to me. I might have done the same thing if I felt threatened in my home, but I would not be bragging about it. A simple call to police and lawyer would suffice.
rekees4300
Elite Member
Yes how one feels doesn't matter. All that matters is the law and the facts of each case. Laws vary widely from state to state so it is important to know your laws.
Indiana
IC 35-41-3-2
(d) A person:
(1) is justified in using reasonable force, including deadly force, against any other person; and
(2) does not have a duty to retreat;
if the person reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent or terminate the other person's unlawful entry of or attack on the person's dwelling, curtilage, or occupied motor vehicle.
TMR
Gold Member
"Reasonable Force"?
He went to the basement and got two guns (Mini 14?) and a 22 pistol) and waited for them to come down the stairs. He shot the first one, a 16-17 year old male, as he came down stairs and he then fell down the stairs...he then shot him again a number of times in the face as he laid on the basement floor. He then dragged the first victim into another room.
After a few minutes the second intruder, the 16-17 year old girl, also came down the stairs...he also shot her and she tumbled down the stairs. His first gun (Mini 14) jammed and he took out his pistol and shot her a number of times in the chest. He then dragged the second person into the room along side the first...she was still struggling to breath so he put the pistol under her chin and shot into her brain. He called it a "clean kill shot". No mention in any reporting yet that the two teens had any type of weapon.
He then left them there until the next day...when he called a neighbor.
In essence he executed both teens after he a shot them and they fell down the stairs to the basement floor. While Minnesota law allows reasonable force I think he is in deep trouble and will spend a long time in jail. If he had stopped after they were first shot and on the ground and subdued he would possibly have been OK under the law...but when he shot the girl three different times...1) as she came down the stairs...2) changed guns and shot her multiple times in the chest as she laid on the basement floor...and 3) then again a "kill" shot delivered under the chin when he could hear her still trying to breathe...hard to say that is "reasonable" force. At least for any "reasonable" person.
We live in the country and I can see where I would defend my house and wife if someone broke in and it may result in death...but once he was able to clearly see they were no threat...his right to defend ended and he had NO right to execute.
BTW...my wife graduated with the shooter's one year older older brother and my BIL was very good friends throughout his school years with the shooter...hasn't had any contact since high school. Tragic event for ALL involved and our society.
He went to the basement and got two guns (Mini 14?) and a 22 pistol) and waited for them to come down the stairs. He shot the first one, a 16-17 year old male, as he came down stairs and he then fell down the stairs...he then shot him again a number of times in the face as he laid on the basement floor. He then dragged the first victim into another room.
After a few minutes the second intruder, the 16-17 year old girl, also came down the stairs...he also shot her and she tumbled down the stairs. His first gun (Mini 14) jammed and he took out his pistol and shot her a number of times in the chest. He then dragged the second person into the room along side the first...she was still struggling to breath so he put the pistol under her chin and shot into her brain. He called it a "clean kill shot". No mention in any reporting yet that the two teens had any type of weapon.
He then left them there until the next day...when he called a neighbor.
In essence he executed both teens after he a shot them and they fell down the stairs to the basement floor. While Minnesota law allows reasonable force I think he is in deep trouble and will spend a long time in jail. If he had stopped after they were first shot and on the ground and subdued he would possibly have been OK under the law...but when he shot the girl three different times...1) as she came down the stairs...2) changed guns and shot her multiple times in the chest as she laid on the basement floor...and 3) then again a "kill" shot delivered under the chin when he could hear her still trying to breathe...hard to say that is "reasonable" force. At least for any "reasonable" person.
We live in the country and I can see where I would defend my house and wife if someone broke in and it may result in death...but once he was able to clearly see they were no threat...his right to defend ended and he had NO right to execute.
BTW...my wife graduated with the shooter's one year older older brother and my BIL was very good friends throughout his school years with the shooter...hasn't had any contact since high school. Tragic event for ALL involved and our society.
Sounds like reasonable force to me. First guy down the stairs, shot and not dead yet. Maybe he had a weapon and the guy has no way of knowing. This requires a second and maybe a third shot to confirm. Someone coming down the stairs after hearing gun shots....they MUST be armed !...this person also needs to be stopped at all costs. As far as not calling the cops, the homeowner was clearly in a state of shock and was in fear for his life...not knowing if there may be a third fourth even a fifth burglar in his home......totally justified.
TMR
Gold Member
How could he possibly be still in fear for his life as the girl had been shot multiple times in the chest and he dragged her body into the next room and had to put his pistol under her chin and shot her again as he could hear her still trying to breath. That was an execution which is not permitted under Minnesota law...I trust the eventual jury will have zero problem determining that the shooter went WAY beyond reasonable.
If he had stopped after he had each subdued and called the police and ambulance he likely would have been OK. If it had been your daughter would you still feel she deserved to be executed with a third shooting AFTER he had shot her two different times with two different guns AND after he had dragged her very wounded body into the next room to place it along side the dead boy???
dave1949
Super Star Member
This article is from a local paper.
Little Falls mourns teen cousin shooting victims, Kifer and Brady - Montevideo, MN - Montevideo American-News - Montevideo, MN
Sad case. These were small town (8,000) kids out on a lark, maybe not their first, but they were not hardened criminals or gang bangers. Junior and Senior in high school, active in athletics, had friends. Somehow, they got off on the wrong path, that is obvious. The homeowner had no local criminal history and is an apparent up-standing citizen.
In this particular case, I would have to say two kids are dead, and man is going to jail due to a misuse of lethal force.
Using lethal force, with a gun or otherwise, carries the moral responsibility for judgement on when to use lethal force because you don't get a do-over with death. Castle Doctrine and Stand Your Ground-type laws basically say that no such judgement is required to be proven or possessed. While I have no problem with defending oneself, I think it is fundamentally wrong to throw an expectation of judgement out the window.
Holding a lethal weapon should not absolve one of the reasonable requirement to have and apply judgement consistent with societies expectations. That is why this guy is in jail, his actions did not meet societies expectations.
Little Falls mourns teen cousin shooting victims, Kifer and Brady - Montevideo, MN - Montevideo American-News - Montevideo, MN
Sad case. These were small town (8,000) kids out on a lark, maybe not their first, but they were not hardened criminals or gang bangers. Junior and Senior in high school, active in athletics, had friends. Somehow, they got off on the wrong path, that is obvious. The homeowner had no local criminal history and is an apparent up-standing citizen.
In this particular case, I would have to say two kids are dead, and man is going to jail due to a misuse of lethal force.
Using lethal force, with a gun or otherwise, carries the moral responsibility for judgement on when to use lethal force because you don't get a do-over with death. Castle Doctrine and Stand Your Ground-type laws basically say that no such judgement is required to be proven or possessed. While I have no problem with defending oneself, I think it is fundamentally wrong to throw an expectation of judgement out the window.
Holding a lethal weapon should not absolve one of the reasonable requirement to have and apply judgement consistent with societies expectations. That is why this guy is in jail, his actions did not meet societies expectations.
jefwyn
Silver Member
Don't you think he was certain when he was dragging her to another room?