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  1. #51
    Super Star Member dave1949's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is there a limit to the number of mice you can trap in a barn?

    Quote Originally Posted by Soundguy View Post
    Why do you KEEP referencing Ethylene glycol ( toxic ) antifreeze, when we are discussing propylene glycol antifreeze.

    citing studies that are using data on toxic antifreeze in an argument about different materials is befuddleing????

    rv antifreeze is PG.. NOT EG. your dog people apparently are 4 decades behind the times.. or are otherwise intentional obfuscating the issue for some reason???
    I did not think the discussion was limited to RV antifreeze in the bucket, if so, my bad.

    In any case, if RV AF is PG, it is still toxic to pets, it just takes a larger dose per body weight. That is why PG AF producers have agreed to add a bitter flavor to it.

    The MDS sheet Aaron linked to:
    INGESTION: Considered relatively non-toxic following acute ingestion,
    however, lactic acidosis, stupor and seizures have been reported
    following chronic ingestion and in individuals with underlying kidney
    disease.


    applies to humans, not pets. I don't know if the severity of effects are the same in dogs/cats and humans. I certainly wouldn't give my pets a chance to drink PG antifreeze, or think that it is harmless if they do. The dog journal is happy to see PG and the addition of the bitter flavor as great improvements in pet safety.
    "Those were the days my friend, we thought they'd never end ..."
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  2. #52
    Super Star Member k0ua's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is there a limit to the number of mice you can trap in a barn?

    Propylene glycol is an approved food additive for dog food under the category of animal feed and is generally recognized as safe for dogs,[31] with LD50 = 9 mL/kg. That said, the figure is higher for most laboratory animals (LD50 at levels of 20mL/kg).[32] Similarly, propylene glycol is an approved food additive for human food as well.[33] The exception is that it is prohibited for use in food for cats due to links to Heinz body anemia

    [COLOR="#0000CD"]

    The acute oral toxicity of propylene glycol is very low, and large quantities are required to cause perceptible health damage in humans; propylene glycol is metabolized in the human body into pyruvic acid (a normal part of the glucose-metabolism process, readily converted to energy), acetic acid (handled by ethanol-metabolism), lactic acid (a normal acid generally abundant during digestion), and propionaldehyde (a potentially hazardous substance).
    Serious toxicity generally occurs only at plasma concentrations over 1 g/L, which requires extremely high intake over a relatively short period of time.[16] It would be nearly impossible to reach toxic levels by consuming foods or supplements, which contain at most 1 g/kg of PG. Cases of propylene glycol poisoning are usually related to either inappropriate intravenous administration or accidental ingestion of large quantities by children.[17] The potential for long-term oral toxicity is also low. In one study, in 1972, 12 rats were provided with feed containing as much as 5% PG in feed over a period of 104 weeks and they showed no apparent ill effects; no data on offspring was offered. [18] Because of its low chronic oral toxicity, propylene glycol was classified by the U. S. Food and Drug Administration as "generally recognized as safe" (GRAS) for use as a direct food additive.



    It looks to me that a human or a dog would have to drink a lot of it to become sick from PG.. Whereas a few drops of regular antifreeze is enough to injure or kill an animal. So putting a little PG in a bucket with some water to prevent freezing is absolutely perfectly safe thing to do. Even if fido does drink it. dead rats and all. heck they are putting it in dog food, and people food too.. Aint no thing people.

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  3. #53
    Epic Contributor Soundguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is there a limit to the number of mice you can trap in a barn?

    well.. I went and deleted my guess-math post now that K found some real data to repalce my conjecture.

    as i suspected. darn near impossible to kill yourself with PG.. and surely not a splash of it in some water that mice are swimming in...

    these dog people aren't in california are they? everything is toxic and illegal there.. probably water too..

  4. #54
    Super Star Member dave1949's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is there a limit to the number of mice you can trap in a barn?

    Quote Originally Posted by Soundguy View Post
    well.. I went and deleted my guess-math post now that K found some real data to repalce my conjecture.

    as i suspected. darn near impossible to kill yourself with PG.. and surely not a splash of it in some water that mice are swimming in...

    these dog people aren't in california are they? everything is toxic and illegal there.. probably water too..
    To be fair to the dog people, the article referenced antifreeze that was 50% PG and 50% EG where it noted the toxic dose, and that is what I posted to begin with. They were not distinguishing between RV and regular antifreezes. It's good to understand that RV antifreeze is not toxic, thanks for the info James & Soundguy.

    Actually, the dog people have some interesting articles on training and health. They do a periodic and complete survey of commercial dog food quality too.
    Whole Dog Journal
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  5. #55
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    Default Re: Is there a limit to the number of mice you can trap in a barn?

    Quote Originally Posted by Soundguy View Post
    everything is toxic and illegal there.. probably water too..
    Water is toxic in sufficient quantity.

    And, it's probably a good thing that the back and forth over PG/EG occurred as some people may not realize that RV antifreeze is formulated to be safe. And, it's the antifreeze that goes in the RV water lines, not the antifreeze that goes in the RV's radiator.

    Keith

  6. #56
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    Default Re: Is there a limit to the number of mice you can trap in a barn?

    My major brans toothpaste tube had a marning not to swallow any or to let children use it. Good grief, it's toothpaste--what are you supposed to do with it?
    ******

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  7. #57
    Super Member jerrybob's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is there a limit to the number of mice you can trap in a barn?

    Quote Originally Posted by sixdogs View Post
    My major brans toothpaste tube had a marning not to swallow any or to let children use it. Good grief, it's toothpaste--what are you supposed to do with it?
    Spit it out or use it to polish the wife's silverware!
    I Intend to Live Forever.....So Far....So Good!

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  8. #58
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    Default Re: Is there a limit to the number of mice you can trap in a barn?

    Sixdogs, get yourself some cats. Then you can start a thread titled: Is there no limit to the number of trips to the vet? Mice or vets. . . mice or vets. . . hmm. . . they both are gonna do some $$$ damage.
    Jim


  9. #59
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    Default Re: Is there a limit to the number of mice you can trap in a barn?

    It was warm today so checked the traps and had three more. I can catch three to six a day and that's not much different than when I started in November. They just keep coming.
    ******

    May I be the kind of person my dogs think I am,

  10. #60
    Epic Contributor Soundguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is there a limit to the number of mice you can trap in a barn?

    Quote Originally Posted by sixdogs View Post
    My major brans toothpaste tube had a marning not to swallow any or to let children use it. Good grief, it's toothpaste--what are you supposed to do with it?
    did it say to not swallo 'any'

    or to not swallow any mor e than is used during brushing ( pea sized amount is usually specified ).

    I bet the warning is due to the hydrated silica gell.. not the PG

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