I have a crazy idea to pump water

[RonMar]

Ron, your post interested me. I am currently working on our system for our asscociation. We receive 75 miners inches or a bit over 850 GPM. With two pumps we can keep the system going but have so many variable that come into play. We are now faced with our canal (raw water) being shut down on even days for the rest of the month. That depletes our 50,000 gallon tank pretty quick. We have a float that will shut the pump down but then our secondary pump can't make up the difference and quickly draws down our 5 acre lake which no longer is being supplemented by the canal water on the canal outages. We have other sources, but doing this stuff without a lot of human interaction is tough. I would love to automate it more. Mark

Mark
What are you irrigating that needs that much water?. My garden and lawn sprinkling system is a drop in the bucket compared to the system you describe.

 

[_RaT_]

Mark
What are you irrigating that needs that much water?. My garden and lawn sprinkling system is a drop in the bucket compared to the system you describe.

Our entire community. 162 homes primarily plus a little of the 200 acres of common area. There is a year round creek that runs through here that has a considerable flow we get to utilize as well. We also have a separate domestic water line piped to our homes. It all needs replacing. Any water line engineers out there?

 

[Egon]

A syphon is not limited by the amount of atmospheric pressure. The outlet must just be lower than the inlet. The foot valve closing tight could be the biggest problem here.

As mentioned before a holding tank with a float controlled shutoff valve would work.

Have you considered a small windmill?

Solar collectors with small downhole pump?

 

[meledward23]

I think Egon has two excellent suggestions. Windmill or Solar Power (I would prefer this route due to experience) might be an excellent idea.

I was going to mention don't forget you can place the storage tank below ground in that hillside to keep it's watera constant temperature. Or even two storage tanks, one above ground painted black so that it will warm up (hot) and one below ground so that it will stay cool.

Several Houseboats on our lack do this. Have a 300GAllon Aluminum Resevoir tank ontop painted black, so that they don't have to use a hot water heater.

Siphon's work great. At least on a small scale. I use them on my fish tanks. Well at least on 3 of 5 that are currently running. Of course you are talking about a much longer distance. The biggest challenge to me in the siphon is getting it started. Once established it works great. I basically have the same setup. I siphon from the top of the tank to a holding tank below that contains all the filters, heaters, etc. Water is pumped back up to the main tank (a step you woulndt need).

Keep us posted on your progress.

 

[Phils]

WOW... wish I had the flow you do! 2GPM sure beats 3GPH.

Some more info and ideas for you might be found at another good forum at Northern Arizona Wind & Sun - Index

There is one section there devoted to solar pumping. Solar pumping wouldn't give you the 2GPM 24/7 but could still be more than adequate for your needs, maybe less the pond.

I like your original idea to have the holding tank higher and save the energy normally used to provide pressure. The problems of losing prime, first priming the system, changing water levels and dissolved gases wouldn't be a concern.

But congrats on what I'd term a successful well drill. Are you allowed to use it by code? Some places have minimum flows to satisy permit requirements.

Phil

 

[CurlyDave]

Have you considered a small windmill?

Egon has a great idea here. This is old, old technology -- I have seen many windmills which pump water to tanks for cattle. For human consumption I bet there is not a big difference, but I would research it.

These guys make a very interesting new technology alternative:
WATER PUMPING WINDMILLS-Airlift Technologies High Performance Windmill Water Pumping .

Wind compresses air which is used to power a bubble pump. All the moving parts are above ground.

These guys have the traditional pumps with sucker rods and a down-hole pump. You can find prices on their website. You need Windmill, tower, pump, plumbing & sucker rods, etc.

Aermotor Windmill Company Inc.- Economical Energy Wind Water Pump - Welcome

It isn't going to be free, but I think that a device built exactly for your purpose is going to be a much better bet than a home-designed system.

A windmill will work even if your water level falls significantly. You have a static water reading taken on one day of one year. A little bit of drought and that can fall substantially. If it falls, you will lose your entire investment in a siphon system, and you will be left scrambling for a water source at the worst possible time.

Lastly, most wells work fine for domestic use, but if run at capacity 24/7 may deplete the aquifer. I would want to control water flow in some way other than just letting it overflow into a pond.

 

[stumpfield]

At this time of the year, the water level is the lowest around here. So, if I get 2gpm now, it will only be more in the wet season. I have several springs on my property that's flowing year round at about this rate. So, it's fairly safe to assume I will have at least 2gpm all the time and the water level remain the same as long as I don't draw more than the well can recover. But who knows... things can change. I have to work with this assumption for now.

At this time, I'm the only well in the area (within about 9 square miles). All my neighbors rely on springs for their water source. No well yet. The nearest well is about 4 miles away on the same road. My land and most of the surrounding area is in the williamson's act (land conservation contract). So, no development anytime soon. The minimum parcel size here is 160 acres and you only allow to build 1 home and is limited to no larger than 2500 sqft. Even my closest neighbor decided to drill a well on the property line, it's still a 1/4 mile away.

Anyway, the idea was to get a continuous flow of water out of the well so I can get the most out of that 2gpm recovery rate. This requires a constant supply of energy with any type of mechanical pump . Between solar, wind and GRAVITY, I want to explore the option of gravity 1st. Gravity seems to be the most reliable one. I don't have to go very far for the 30' drop in elevation. Only about 50' away. At 2gpm, the distance and pipe restriction is not an issue. Anyone familiar with Bernoulli's equation?

I like Eddie's idea about digging a trench. Actually, I need horizontal drilling because it's solid granite about 10ft below. If I can hit the well below the 20' water line, water will just flow out directly. I don't even need to siphon it. About 30ft from the well (directly behind the drilling rig in the picture) is a very steep drop off. About a 1:1 slope down to a ravine. I problably don't need to drill very far horizontally. May be about 50ft. The big question is how are they going to get the drilling equipment there??? How can they pinpoint exactly to hit the well shaft? If this works, it is essential a spring.

Anyone know of any device to help start a siphon? Something like starting a pump, then shut it off once water fill the line and the siphon effect starts. Will a submerged well pump do that?

 

[turnkey4099]

The water pulled up 20' in a siphon pipe is at a high vacuum -- about 33' of water is a full vacuum and water cant be pulled any higher. Even at 20' I would worry that dissolved gases would bubble out of the water and deprime the siphon during periods of no or even low flow. It wouldnt take much of a bubble at the high point in the tube to stop the siphon and some, perhaps significant, flow would be necessary to keep them flushed downhill before they got that big. Eddies idea to pipe it out horizontally would be trouble free if you can set it up.
Larry

Thanks. I read the whole thread hoping someone would point that out. His plan will not work. The theoretical maximum siphon is about 33 ft at sea level and drops with every foot of elevation. In areal life, the maximum practical siphone lift is usually figured at 25-26 ft. Again at sea level.

Calcuilation is .46 psi per foot of required lift (weight of water) divided into the average barometric pressure (in psi) at the location minus a bunch of pipe loss. Once it exceeds the barometic pressure you are out of luck.

Harry K

Harry K

 

[SPYDERLK]

Thanks. I read the whole thread hoping someone would point that out. His plan will not work. The theoretical maximum siphon is about 33 ft at sea level and drops with every foot of elevation. In areal life, the maximum practical siphone lift is usually figured at 25-26 ft. Again at sea level.

Calcuilation is .46 psi per foot of required lift (weight of water) divided into the average barometric pressure (in psi) at the location minus a bunch of pipe loss. Once it exceeds the barometic pressure you are out of luck.

Harry K

Harry K

Harry K, thanks for seconding that truth. Theres no magic in a siphon that allows you to ignore physics. I believe there is a way it may work since he wants constant flow. First we must know something.

Stumpfield, what is atmospheric pressure at your location? - - or what is your altitude and we can look it up. You are going to start getting pretty iffy for reliability in the 2-3k ft range. You could do it with very enlightened design up to about 4K'. Above about 10k' a 20' lift is impossible.

As for starting your siphon, try this;
1) Fill a 50' good 5/8" hose completely with water and then screw it closed,
2) Take it and a smaller diameter shorter hose to the well,
3) Put one end of the little hose down to the water,
4) Loop your big hose downhill with the the joined ends on the uppermost part of the loop with you and the little hose end,
5) Disconnect the ends of the big hose keeping them at the same level,
6) Join one end to the little hose tightly,
7) Plug the other end with your thumb, take it downhill and release.

If your small hose doesnt have too much volume this should start the siphon if there are no air leaks and the hoses dont suck shut.
Larry

 

[MikeD74T]

Anyone know of any device to help start a siphon? Something like starting a pump, then shut it off once water fill the line and the siphon effect starts. Will a submerged well pump do that?

Stumpfield, The siphoning idea will work a lot better than the nay sayers think it will. Get 100 - 150' of garden hose. Put a valve (garden hose ball valve) on the outlet end. Fill the hose with water (must be completely full), close the valve, & quickly lower the open end to the well bottom. Stretch the hose as far as it will go down the hill. Open the valve to let the water flow. You'll probably be able to see the well water when it starts as you'll likely stir up a little sediment lowering the hose. Walk back up the hill with the valve end of the hose keeping last 4' pointed up. It will stop flowing when the outlet is level with the well water. Keep the outlet pointed up so the downhill section does not drain & the siphon will start & stop with changes in the well level. Work slowly down the hill to get your desired flow rate being mindful of slowing velocity which means you're drawing the well down to your level. I use this method in place of a sump pump when outside of freezing season. It will keep a nearly constant flow as long as the suction remains submerged & the downhill run remains full.
Once you've determined the static level at a desired flow rate position your storage tank & plumb to the house from that. You should be able to keep the tank nearly full without excess drawdown from the well.
Don't worry too much about friction loss. There will be some but the loss is more a function of velocity, so at low flow rates it will be minimal. Even at 1/2 gpm you'll be getting 720 gallons per day. If you eventually go to hard pipe you can rig the pipe, fill with water from the bottom backfeeding toward the well & the siphon should start. Worst case put a check valve on the well end to keep it from draining back. Good luck & keep us posted. MikeD74T