I have a crazy idea to pump water

[SPYDERLK]

I spent a week off and on trying different things. I put more water into the well than I got out of it. Even with a check valve at the bottom to keep the suction hose full of water and the pump primed. It just can't pull water up that high and so close to the practical limit. After adding all the variables, I'm very close to that limit. I'm at about 3000' elevation. The well casing is another a foot and a half above ground plus all other inefficiencies. I decided to go with a solar pump. Grundfos SQfelx 11 Helical Rotor pump. It's a very expensive pump but very flexible and able to take 30-300v DC and 90-240v AC.

Im sorry I didnt focus on the pump issue sooner. Youve learned empirically what the numbers would have told us up front, had we looked at them. Your altitude has atmospheric pressure equivalent to about 29' of water. With your raised well head you have a lift requirement of 21.5'. With this 7.5' margin a siphon would work. Your pump has 26' lift at sea level. Reduce this by 4' due to your elevation and you have a nominal lift capacity of 22' - - a 0.5' margin. So, with the pump you are at the theoretical limit of possibility to be able to get the water over the top. You may have tried during a period of low barometric pressure which would have made it worse. If it had come over you would have been able to establish the siphon. With the downwell pump you plan, it would be fairly simple to keep the siphon option open. Just put a zero pressure cracking check valve in the pipe right above the pump. Once the pump fills the line it could be turned off and the check would open and allow the siphon to pull water.
Larry

 

[EddieWalker]

Larry,

I sure am glad there are people in the world like you who understand these things. When I read what you write, I think, wow, that makes sense. But to think of these things is way beyond what I'm capable of.

Thanks, it's guys like you and threads like this, that make this site so much fun and interesting!!!!

Eddie

 

[turnkey4099]

I spent a week off and on trying different things. I put more water into the well than I got out of it. Even with a check valve at the bottom to keep the suction hose full of water and the pump primed. It just can't pull water up that high and so close to the practical limit. After adding all the variables, I'm very close to that limit. I'm at about 3000' elevation. The well casing is another a foot and a half above ground plus all other inefficiencies. I decided to go with a solar pump. Grundfos SQfelx 11 Helical Rotor pump. It's a very expensive pump but very flexible and able to take 30-300v DC and 90-240v AC.

Yep, you ran out of 'suck' the 3,000 ft elevation is probably what killed it. You lose some 'suck' for every foot you go up. 26 ft suction limit is spec'd at sea level.

Harry K

 

[MossRoad]

Did you try it without the pump at all by filling the hose like we suggested earlier?

 

[stumpfield]

Did you try it without the pump at all by filling the hose like we suggested earlier?

Yes I did. That alone didn't start the siphon process. I got the siphon going by pumping water back into the well from down below to completely filling the hose as sugguested here. I actually fill the well to about 10' from the top. The siphon stops as soon as the water level drops back to it's original level or may be a foot or two lower.
One thing I learn was that the water level drops a couple of feet when I start getting water out of the well. There seems to be a delay in the recovery no matter how slow you draw water out of the well. May be that's the nature of a super slow 2gpm recovery rate or it could be less than 2gpm. I have no way to confirm the actual recovery rate.

I'm curious to know if the water level of your well drops a little or maintain exactly the same level when you start pumping.

BTW, the robin pump did work and got some water out of the well but for a may be 10 seconds. That's because I'm right at the border line. When the pump draws water out of the well, the water level immediately drop a couple feet and that put me over the limit.

 

[turnkey4099]

Yes I did. That alone didn't start the siphon process. I got the siphon going by pumping water back into the well from down below to completely filling the hose as sugguested here. I actually fill the well to about 10' from the top. The siphon stops as soon as the water level drops back to it's original level or may be a foot or two lower.
One thing I learn was that the water level drops a couple of feet when I start getting water out of the well. There seems to be a delay in the recovery no matter how slow you draw water out of the well. May be that's the nature of a super slow 2gpm recovery rate or it could be less than 2gpm. I have no way to confirm the actual recovery rate.

I'm curious to know if the water level of your well drops a little or maintain exactly the same level when you start pumping.

BTW, the robin pump did work and got some water out of the well but for a may be 10 seconds. That's because I'm right at the border line. When the pump draws water out of the well, the water level immediately drop a couple feet and that put me over the limit.

Any possibility of trenching a couple feet and going in the side of the well?

Harry K

 

[SPYDERLK]

Yes I did. That alone didn't start the siphon process. I got the siphon going by pumping water back into the well from down below to completely filling the hose as sugguested here. I actually fill the well to about 10' from the top. The siphon stops as soon as the water level drops back to it's original level or may be a foot or two lower.
One thing I learn was that the water level drops a couple of feet when I start getting water out of the well. There seems to be a delay in the recovery no matter how slow you draw water out of the well. May be that's the nature of a super slow 2gpm recovery rate or it could be less than 2gpm. I have no way to confirm the actual recovery rate.

I'm curious to know if the water level of your well drops a little or maintain exactly the same level when you start pumping.

BTW, the robin pump did work and got some water out of the well but for a may be 10 seconds. That's because I'm right at the border line. When the pump draws water out of the well, the water level immediately drop a couple feet and that put me over the limit.

Yes the water level drop is normal - - another thing we didnt focus on that we should have. If you think of the saturated underground area you are drawing water from, it essentially forms a level pool in the soil. This pool is a very sluggish feed mechanism since water must flow thru soil to reach and maintain your well level. Water only flows to your well from a level above the level of the water in the well. As the water in the well goes down the water "table" slumps toward your well - - you form a localized depression. Im guessing that at 2GPM the slump goes very near to the bottom of the well before input - output equilibrates. We are probably talking a pretty slow siphon to prevent using all of the 7' surplus head you have in the resting well. You dont even want to get too near using up the surplus because at that point you can produce a virtually absolute vacuum, which of course nature abhors. It will go below the vapor pressure of water and the water will boil. Even one bubble forming in the pipe will stop you when your at the max.

A bummer. Probably, pumping from near the bottom of your well is the only way you will be able to get 2GPM continuous. Make sure your pump doesnt exceed this capacity too much or you will empty the well and suck air temporarily anytime the pump runs more than a few minutes.
Larry

 

[stumpfield]

Yes the water level drop is normal - - another thing we didnt focus on that we should have............
Larry

So, if you got a 100gpm well and your pump is pulling 10gpm, will the water level stay put? From talking to my well driller, water level will drop to a certain degree even if you are only pulling 10% of the recovery rate. It takes a while for the water level in the well to equalize. Sort of like a response time....

Out here, we don't really have a water table. That "response" time is much slower than if the well were in the valley with a water table. Water flows through the cracks in the rock from the higher elevation down to the valley. It suppose to flow constantly no matter what. If I don't pump water out of my well, water just simply chose a different path. When the water level drops to a certain point in my well, then it will try to replenish back to the static level at the recovery rate. This "delay" is what makes it difficult for the siphon process.

Have anyone observe the water level of their well during the initial pumping? Does the static water level drop at all? How far does it drop before it starts to rise again?

 

[JoeL4330]

I like Eddie's idea about digging a trench. Actually, I need horizontal drilling because it's solid granite about 10ft below. If I can hit the well below the 20' water line, water will just flow out directly. I don't even need to siphon it. About 30ft from the well (directly behind the drilling rig in the picture) is a very steep drop off. About a 1:1 slope down to a ravine. I problably don't need to drill very far horizontally. May be about 50ft. The big question is how are they going to get the drilling equipment there??? How can they pinpoint exactly to hit the well shaft? If this works, it is essential a spring.

Anyone know of any device to help start a siphon? Something like starting a pump, then shut it off once water fill the line and the siphon effect starts. Will a submerged well pump do that?

I assume that you have looked carefully for any sign of seepage--vegetation growth, e.g.,--on the slope below what seems to be the water table ...if you found any trace, you might be able to dig out a spring ...

You did mention solid granite, but of course, it isn't "solid" everywhere because you have water, so there is porosity and void "veins" ...note that you don't have to hit the well, only a void through which water can upwell ...your "borehole" (i.e., your well) shows that there is a pressure head that will cause the water to upwell to the 20'-down-from-the-top level.

As for starting (after stopping/losing) the siphon flow, it would seem that a pump on a an interval timer would work quite well, once you experimented with how long (say, 80% worst case) it takes to establish the siphon flow ...the timer presumably would be triggered by a float valve in the storage tank.

 

[SPYDERLK]

So, if you got a 100gpm well and your pump is pulling 10gpm, will the water level stay put? From talking to my well driller, water level will drop to a certain degree even if you are only pulling 10% of the recovery rate. It takes a while for the water level in the well to equalize. Sort of like a response time....

Out here, we don't really have a water table. That "response" time is much slower than if the well were in the valley with a water table. Water flows through the cracks in the rock from the higher elevation down to the valley. It suppose to flow constantly no matter what. If I don't pump water out of my well, water just simply chose a different path. When the water level drops to a certain point in my well, then it will try to replenish back to the static level at the recovery rate. This "delay" is what makes it difficult for the siphon process.

Have anyone observe the water level of their well during the initial pumping? Does the static water level drop at all? How far does it drop before it starts to rise again?

Yes, any flow will reduce the well level since water in a resting well has been pushed to the highest level achievable by the source in the surrounding earth combined with any pressure from an aquifer the well may have tapped into. When water is pumped out, more water flows in because the level drops - - essentially lowering the amount of backpressure/head opposing the source. The amount of drop will depend on how the well is sourced versus the pumping rate.
Yes, static water level always drops when pumping. You can observe this, but you can know it without observing it just by thinking about it. Water level does not start to rise while you are pumping. It goes down to a level where the source sustains the pumping rate, or if pumped beyond that capability it goes down until your pump starts slurping. Water level will rise when pumping rate is decreased or stopped.
Larry