Has anyone have any comments on Demilec foam insolation

   / Has anyone have any comments on Demilec foam insolation #1  

sr160009

Silver Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2007
Messages
164
Location
Collinsville, Tx
Tractor
Massey Ferguson 231s
I am in the process of having a house built and I have done some reseach on spray in foam insolation. Most of the stuff I have read about says this is the way to go. It is about cost about 3x more than your standard insolation, but I think I will get this back in savings on heating and cooling.

I want to see if any of ya'll have had any experence with this type of insolation and any comments are very much appreciated.
 
   / Has anyone have any comments on Demilec foam insolation #2  
I built a house last year for my Mom and used a polyurethane foam insulation. It was a different brand/formula than Demilec - in fact it has an R-value of 6 or 7 per inch as opposed to the 3.81 per inch listed at Demilac's web site. So what we did was sprayed in 4 inches into a 6-inch stud bay and left the air space to the warm side.

Regardless of which poly-foam formula that you use, you will not regret using that kind of product. I'm not as up on the ventilation and water vapor protection needs in the south, but in the colder climates one of the nice benefits of sprayed foam is that it completely seals out drafts and acts as your vapor barrier. If your house is close to a road you will find sprayed foam to be much quieter as well.

The only caveat is that the house will be so tight you REALLY need to install a heat recovery ventilation system (or in the south an energy recovery ventilation system) - just Google "hrv/erv" for details about that. Without a supply of fresh air you are guaranteed to get "sick house syndrome" - more colds, allergies and respritory problems, etc caused by lack of fresh air.

Do it - you will not regret it.

Paul
 
   / Has anyone have any comments on Demilec foam insolation #3  
Apparently some need to know the difference between open and closed cell foam. Both products air seal and by air sealing the home between very energy efficient. Open cell foam absorbs sound. Closed cell does not absorb sound but does make a home rigid which improves its racking ability
 
   / Has anyone have any comments on Demilec foam insolation #4  
We did our house in 2006 with Sealection 500 open cell foam. The attic space is insulated not open, and we have a metal roof. I am very pleased with the product thus far.

As a home owner, there is one thing you have to watch out for. Every subcontractor (including the general contractor and architect if you have one) is focused on their piece of the puzzle. As such, they have two goals. They want to get a bigger piece of the money pie, but they also need to compete with other subcontractors on price. You are the only one viewing the project as a system and you are the only one who can weight trade offs.

We built with 2x6 wall studs. The foam contractor bid the job as spraying an average 3.5" of insulation. The roof trusses were made from 2x6's, and he bid 5.5" in the attic. He knew that the a goal of the house was to be energy star certified. I didn't care about that, but the design-build group that did the house wanted it, and as long as it didn't cost me anything I said OK.

As you may know, there are two ways to have the insulation in the house approved. Prescriptive is when the amount of insulation in the walls and ceilings has a certain R value. The other way is to do a full analysis of the house and make sure it's OK. A program that is online called "resi-check" (I think...) gets fed your square footage, wall area, window U values, window square footage, and other things and spits out a number. If the number is below 1200, you are good to go.

So with that background, here's what happened. The insulation contractor specified the above thicknesses of insulation because it was cheapest to install. There would be little to no cutting of foam in the walls, and in the ceiling he could just fill the spaces and not guess about depth. The resi-check program let him get a 1200 score, and that was all he had to do as his part of working towards an energy star rating. He had a bid of $18,000 to do the house. For grins, we got a price for fiberglass insulation and it came in at $12,000. This is a good sized house and home office, so look at the percent change more than the numbers. Cost per square foot are kinda silly here, since it's the surface area to be insulated more than the floor space.

The problem was that we had a lot of money spent in the bigger walls (I did 2x6 walls on 16 centers for better strength), lots of money spent on high dollar good windows (argon filled, low E, Anderson stuff), and the design of the house had a reduced number of windows (fenestration ratio, it was 12%). All this extra money allowed him to do a lot less with the insulation and get a low bid, but his proposed low bid would have neutralized the effective energy savings and money spent on walls, windows, and less window area. I caught this by accident when I was playing with the resi-check program after I found out about it.

It took a lot of discussion with him to figure out what he was proposing and why. So I ended up asking for a quote for an average of 5" in the walls (with no point less than 4", big reduction in cutting vs. a full fill), and 7" in the ceiling. The $18K went to $24K. We also got a single-coat spray, about 1.5 to 2", under the master bed room and between the 1st and 2nd floors for sound and heat. The resi-check number went from 1200 to 900. This is a unit-less number, and I suspect it's like R values and is logarithmic, so things got better and I had the above average insulated house I wanted. He ended up cutting about 1/3 of the walls (the top and bottom where he reversed direction). He started the ceiling in the hardest part of the rafter to get to, and I climbed up in there and saw that he was spraying 5.5" and then a top coat, we had a discussion, I put some nails in to show where 7" was and the rest of the job went OK.

So the effective R values in the walls was 19, and in the ceiling it was 25. The only thing I'd change is I'd take the ceiling to 30. The combination of the metal room reflecting so much of the sun's energy and the insulation is great. On a 102 degree day during construction (the floors were going in) I had the AC on with the house at 73 degrees. The attic was at 85 degrees.

The other argument for the original quote was that the foam seals so much better than fiberglass. This is very true, and is (IMHO) the main win with the foam. This is especially true in "the bands", the area where the floor trusses meet the outside of the building. I think there is a trend to try to use this better sealing as justification for lower R values in order to make the product more cost competitive with fiberglass. I view this this way: Foam is the "perfect" product for using R value because all air leakage is eliminated and the R value is pure R value not diluted by leaks (if that makes any sense). So yeah, not leaking is great but I still want a high R value.

There is often talk in many areas of construction about payback periods. Sometimes this makes sense (as in HVAC and insulation), sometimes it doesn't (How do you compute the payback period for granite countertops vs. Corian vs. Formica?). Our Wall-Mart culture has produced a mindset in the building industry (again IMHO) that supports a 3 year payback. When doing our house (our last house, I'll be leaving horizontally) I was happy with paybacks in the 8-10 year range (yeah, that's _so_ un-American of me :laughing:).

I point this out because discussions with foam installers will inevitably involve concepts of leakage and payback. They have had the discussion many times and are masters, you will be having in for the 1st time.

When they crew was done, I went through the house and spent about 3 days and 15 cans of Great Stuff (closed cell foam) and hit every small hole and void I could find. The crew also foamed around the windows with a low expansion foam, and caulked where 2x6's made headers/jacks for windows and doors. When the guy came to do the energy star test (the design build group paid for it), he did the door blower test (the "how tight is the house" test) three times because the numbers were far lower than he calculated. He did the calculations knowing it was a foam house.

The house holds smells more than our old fiberglass house. We've not put in an air exchanger yet, time will tell. We do have a problem with a black airborne mold on the toilet but fiberglass houses in the area have that too. My next house project is UV filters in the ducts (not the HVAC units). The other big win is the humidity levels in the winter are great. We do not need to run a humidifier like we did in our old fiberglas house.

In summary, I would go for the foam if you can swing it. It's one of the few things you can't go back and change easily. Yes, it bucks the trend of modern housing which tends to put the money only where you can see it but this stuff is great. If energy cost continue to go up, it gets better.

Sorry for the very long post. Part of that is I'm too wordy, part of that is I want to fully answer the OPs question :).

Pete
 
Last edited:
   / Has anyone have any comments on Demilec foam insolation #5  
I'm totally sold on the open foam. In our new house we did all the walls in Selection 500, plus any sloping ceiling where this is no attic space is foamed. Selected walk areas in the flat attics have the foam beneath OSB, such as the HVAC service area. All other horizontal ceilings have traditional blown in fiberglass (R50). The attic is ventilated and we have the OSB with foil radiant barrier on the bottom surface.

Attic temps get about the same temp as outside, which is not bad.

However I now regret not spending the extra money to do the entire envelope, because I'd really like to have a "clean" attic space. As it is you can't walk around up there due to 20" of insulation, and there are mice making tunnels in the stuff.

I do have the ERV ventilation system which seems to work well. I usually set it to run 10% - 30% depending on humidity. If extremely humid I turn it off for a while, and I cut it off during spring and fall open window weather.

I was told that you should never use the rigid "close cell" foam in the roof rafters because if you have a leak the water will stay above the insulation and you can't figure out where the leak is, plus you can get alot of rot before you are even aware of the leak. The open cell foam is also more flexible so is supposed to stick to the studs even as the materials expand and contract, whereas the rigid foam can pull away from the studs leaving a gap.
 
   / Has anyone have any comments on Demilec foam insolation #6  
Some folks just have 1/2" sprayed to get the benifits of the sealing, but then fill with fiber batts. Big savings.

Another note. Spray foam installers will often tell you less insulation is OK. Some thing like you get bang for your buck in the first 2 to 3 inches. Search this and you will see it's bogus.
 
   / Has anyone have any comments on Demilec foam insolation #7  
Alan,

I am building on the S. Side of Grayson county and am planning on doing what you did. Do you mind sending me a PM of your insulation contractor, I will probably be ready by Wednesday.

Jason
 
   / Has anyone have any comments on Demilec foam insolation #8  
HI Writing to you from Ireland EU . i am looking at instaling the open cell expanding foam demilec . These product are still very new here and not sure how well will it work here as most houses done here have only been done in last 2-3 years.

Its a block build house with a 4 inch block a 4 inch cavity space and another 4 inc block as the outer space. Inbetween is injected beading in the cavity to let it breath but still retain heat. I want to spray this demilec in the roof space between the rafter so as not to let cold air come in or heat escape in the winter. the roof is of a pitch

Ireland is very damp and thats my only worry . The summer never gets warmer than 25 degrees celcuis in the summer at extreme temperature. At the bottom of my slope of the roof on the outside is a few vents to let in air and this is suppose to curculate around to let the roof breath in one side and out the other side naturally . So normally when people insulate with the rigid boards in the rafter of the roof. They dont use the entire 15cm of the rafters depth they insulate the internal 10cm of the rafter and let the remainder 5cm thats agianst the roof slate open to alow for breathing. So my worry is that these open sell stuff wont allow for perfect breathing if the entire rafter (15cm) is filled up as they are doing now and also recomending .

Youall have been using that stuff so much longer in the states now and would love some advise and comments . Aspecially if there is a damp place like Ireland with similiar climate. Also my house is by the coast so even more humudity

Regards :)
 
   / Has anyone have any comments on Demilec foam insolation #9  
EEPETE -- How is the summer humidity in your home with the foam insulation? Does the humidity tend to be higher? I realize that the AC takes the humidity out but do you find that you have to keep the house cooler then normal to make it comfortable?
 
   / Has anyone have any comments on Demilec foam insolation #10  
roamerr, no problems with summer humidity. The foam makes the house so air tight that the HVAC system handles it just fine. Less air coming in means less _humid_ air coming in.

We also have the dual speed compressors on the geothermal heat pumps. So the heat pumps run at the low speed virtually all the time. This means they run for long enough durations to take out the humidity. And with the tight air seal you get with the foam, there is not a not of outside humid air leaking in.

In the winter, the house does not have dry air leaking in. In our old fiberglass insulated house, we had to use humidifiers. I put water lines in by the heat pumps in case we needed to add them. But the humidity in the winter is just fine due to low air leakage.

I'm guessing here that there might be some confusion regarding the term "open cell foam". The open cell part just makes the foam flexible after it is installed. So as the house moves and flexes, the foam sticks to the wood and the seal is still good. Open cell does not mean air flows in with no problem- the fact that the houses are so tight speaks to this. This is an observation and guess, not something I know for sure.

Pete
 
 
Top