8 year old hurt

[mboulais]

I totally agree with runner about the reverse thing. That safety device would be gone the second time I used that mower too. This was probably added due to someone backing over their kid with a lawn mower. Having the button, doesn't force you to look behind you, it only forces you to push the button. The whole point of HST is to allow for quick direction changes, the switch kind of defeats that.

As far as other "safety" items:

It's not that I don't like ROPS, I just don't think they are the be-all, end-all of tractor safety. ROPS have away of catching on overhead obstructions and can in fact roll over a tractor becuase of it. I have caught tree branches. I know a guy at work that took the ROPS off his zero turn mower after a couple near misses in the first two times out with it. I am not removing mine, I like it for the lights mounted above my head. Now that I have made room for the tractor in the barn, I could put it up. It has been down since I stored the tractor in the garage while installing the borrowed backhoe this spring. I am not in a hurry to put it up, but I'm not taking it off either.

Operator presence switches wouldn't help in most cases where the tractor is moving vs during dismounting. Say I have a stroke 20 yrs from now while mowing the back forty on the 200 acre ranch I buy after winning the lottery. I am mowing at 5mph with a 7' bushhog and fall off the seat forward and to the side. By time the tractor stops I will be somewhere between the rear wheel and the mower with R4 tracks across my backside. That may not be an argument for removing them, but it shoots holes in your theory that you can't live without it. My tractor doesn't have one, but I would of removed it if it did. I occasionally lean forward to better see whats going by under the tractor while bush hogging or to better see what I am doing when moving suspended loads with the bucket.

As far as seatbelts go, I am still mad that I am required to wear them in my vehicle by law. I am up and down on that tractor a lot on days I actually get to use it. I don't even think about it and it would be a pain for the same reasons the operator presence switch would. I have worn it when traveling at top speed on the highway (15 mph). I cant see anything throwing me from the operator platform at 5-10 mph. Back to the stroke senario, this time same thing happens and I am wearing seatbelt. I slump over and seatbelt keeps me from falling out of seat. I keep traveling to end of field and run into the ditch. The tractor rolls over and I end up unconcious, upside down, strapped in and sinking into the 2' of water and 1' soft mud in bottom of ditch. This time I drown. What did I gain?

I consider each job, if only for a moment, before I start and sometime s again during the job if something changes. I manage risks, I don't hope to or wish to try to eliminate all risk.

I support the use of PTO guards, I discourage work under suspended loads, I like neutral start lockout. Mine might start in gear if the clutch is depressed, I've never tried. I think I'll check that tomorrow. I sometimes start it from the ground.

[N80]

Originally Posted by Runner

I realize I am talking about a lawn tractor and not a CUT or bigger, but the principle is the same.

Yep, that would drive me crazy. But, I'm not talking about lawn mowers and nowhere at anytime did I position myself to defend all safety devices. I'm in completely in agreement that many safety devices are over the top and overly intrusive. My point is simply that ROPS, seatbelts and operator presence switches are not over the top.

[N80]

Originally Posted by mboulais

It's not that I don't like ROPS, I just don't think they are the be-all, end-all of tractor safety.

And I never said that they were. A ROPS is a ROPS and there is good evidence that they do what they are designed to do very well. No one is claiming they will fix you breakfast the morning after.

ROPS have away of catching on overhead obstructions and can in fact roll over a tractor becuase of it.

So that's it? That's the best argument you have for disabling a ROPS? Let me repeat what I've said a dozen times already: Here is a clue that you're about to hit something with your ROPS.....you have to duck! (Now, maybe your ROPS sticks up higher than necessary, but that's beside the point. Even basic safety features can be poorly designed and implemented. I'm not defending bad design.) So, you're approaching a branch low enough to catch your ROPS and big enough to either break it or, as you suggest, turn your tractor over. How is it that you are going to hit this thing? First you have to forget the actual dimensions of your tractor, then you have to duck. How is it that someone who plans his work and is diligent enough never to need ANY rollover protection going to forget how big his tractor is, then duck and then run into a big old branch? My point is, that if you can let that happen...and we all can, then you can let other even more dangerous things happen. We're human. We make mistakes. Period. That's why there are backup parachutes. By your logic they would be unnecessary, right?

Operator presence switches wouldn't help in most cases where the tractor is moving vs during dismounting.

That is pure conjecture. My shuts it down in a snap. The rear tire might get me, but the mower won't. The fact that it isn't going to save you from every occurance isn't the point. The point is that it will save you from a lot of occurances and costs nothing to use.

That may not be an argument for removing them, but it shoots holes in your theory that you can't live without it.

Now you're just making things up. I never suggested any such theory. And again, the fact that you can make up one instance in which it might not work, does not make it a bad feature.

My tractor doesn't have one, but I would of removed it if it did. I occasionally lean forward to better see whats going by under the tractor while bush hogging or to better see what I am doing when moving suspended loads with the bucket.

So that's it? That's your sum total reason for suggesting that this safety feature be disabled? So you can do something inherently dangerous and unwise?

As far as seatbelts go, I am still mad that I am required to wear them in my vehicle by law.

That explains a lot. Remember, driving on public (government) roads is not a right. They own them. You want to use them, then play by their rules. You can drive your car around on your property all day long without a seatbelt.

I am up and down on that tractor a lot on days I actually get to use it. I don't even think about it and it would be a pain for the same reasons the operator presence switch would.

Yes, and people don't like to wear the ones in their cars for similar reasons...oh, and the driving into a lake thing too. Sigh.

I'm up and down a lot to. I push the seatbelt button when I get down, click the seatbelt back in when I get back on. Wow, that's tough isn't it.

I cant see anything throwing me from the operator platform at 5-10 mph.

You have got to be kidding?!? Again, that explains a lot. It is that very same lack of foresight (which we all have) that I'm talking about.

Back to the stroke senario, this time same thing happens and I am wearing seatbelt. I slump over and seatbelt keeps me from falling out of seat. I keep traveling to end of field and run into the ditch. The tractor rolls over and I end up unconcious, upside down, strapped in and sinking into the 2' of water and 1' soft mud in bottom of ditch. This time I drown. What did I gain?

Yep, you got me there. So really the owners manuals should say that if it has been rainy lately and there might be water in the ditch you should remove your seatbelt and fold down the ROPS.

Are you serious? Did I miss a smiley somewhere? Wink wink, nudge nudge. So you seriously want to know what you gained? I'll tell you in a minute. But first, let's put you in your tractor. ROPS folded down, seatbelt off. How do you end up then? Dead, crushed in a ditch and underwater. So either way you're dead right? Well here is what you gain, if you die doing it your way you're going to be dead and everyone is going to think you're an idiot because you got crushed by your tractor because you defeated the two simple features that would have prevented it. If you die doing it my way people will think you were mighty unlucky to have drowned in such a freakish, preposterous and...quite frankly, absurd scenario. But they won't think you died an idiot.

[quote]I consider each job, if only for a moment, before I start and sometime s again during the job if something changes. I manage risks, I don't hope to or wish to try to eliminate all risk.[/quote}

And yet, by your own admission you say you're quite likely to run your ROPS into a giant tree branch. Kinda ironic, huh?

I support the use of PTO guards

PTO gaurds are for sissies!

[mboulais]

N80-

You and I have been in the same debate several times (sometimes with each other).


I have been running tractors 20 yrs (since I was 15 or so), I know how to operate them. Your next argument will involve experienced operator complacency and routine tasks.

The fact that I lean forward to see what a suspended load is doing isn't inherently unsafe, and niether is moving a load under the bucket.

I don't wear the seatbelt, no discussion on here is going to change that. I will sometimes stand while operating a tractor to better see terrain or suspended load, This was not / is not such an uncommon practice (although definitely less safe than staying seated).

If you don't think that seat present switch complicates things, wait till you spend a couple hours trying to figure out why your tractor won't start.

My conjecture to support no precense switch is no less valid than you're conjecture to support them: http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/s...ays-paper.html


You tend to make assumptions about how safe or unsafe others are on this forum very quickly. You made several assumptions about my reasons / methods after I took your bait to continue discussing this.
You often make statements that can be taken as an attack on the intelligence of anyone who doesn't completely agree with you.
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/k...-bummer-3.html

Lets see how I do:

1. Your about 55 ys old
2. Doctor or lawyer
3. You never drove anything larger than a 42" lawnmower until about 3 yrs ago
4. (and this goes with three) this is your first tractor

Did I get any of my assumptions right? Don't take offense, they aren't any worse than the assumptions you implied about me in this discussion or others in the others we both toke part in.

I have stated my opinions and you have stated your opinions. This isn't a winner/loser contest. It is time to agree to disagree. Have a good day.

I'll "see" you around on the other forums.


And I'm still gonna use my PTO guard!

[N80]

Originally Posted by mboulais

I have been running tractors 20 yrs (since I was 15 or so), I know how to operate them. Your next argument will involve experienced operator complacency and routine tasks.

I think your experience is great. I've been operating my tractor for 2 years and I know how to operate it. So? I know experienced people who have been doing dangerous (often stupid) things for years without ever getting hurt. What's your point? And on another tack, do you know how many experienced linemen get electrocuted every year due to simple oversight or neglect? Get my point? Experience is great. But it doesn't make bad practices right.

The fact that I lean forward to see what a suspended load is doing isn't inherently unsafe, and niether is moving a load under the bucket.

Whatever you say, you're the one with all the experience.

I don't wear the seatbelt, no discussion on here is going to change that.

I never intended to change your habits. I've simply been pointing out how indefensible those habits are. Nothing you've said so far makes them defensible.

If you don't think that seat present switch complicates things, wait till you spend a couple hours trying to figure out why your tractor won't start.

Gee, with all those years of experience I'd think you would be able to figger that out right away. On the other hand, the switch on my tractor does not keep it from starting. So I'm not sure what you mean. I can start my tractor from the ground if I want to. I can also run the PTO without anyone in the seat. Are you sure you understand how these things work?

My conjecture to support no precense switch is no less valid than you're conjecture to support them.

You are mistaken and have misrepresented me. Someone made an assumption about what had actually happened. I pointed out that there were other ways in which the accidents might have occured. I did not suggest in any way that that is how they actually occurred. The point, which you missed then and are doggedly missing now, is that things beyond our control and beyond our ability to plan or foresee can happen. THAT is when you need the safety features you disdain.

You tend to make assumptions about how safe or unsafe others are on this forum very quickly.

You operate a tractor with a ROPs folded down. You don't wear the seatbelt. If you had a seat switch you'd disable it. Those are not my assumptions they are your behaviors. How quick does one have to be to see less than safe behavior there?

You often make statements that can be taken as an attack on the intelligence of anyone who doesn't completely agree with you.
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/k...-bummer-3.html

An intelligent person need not feel attacked under such circumstances.

Lets see how I do:

Okay

1. Your about 55 ys old

Wrong. Off by a decade.

2. Doctor or lawyer

Right! I'm a doctor. But don't pat yourself on the back, my occupation is clearly listed in my profile. No need for a crystal ball. As such, I get to see the results of all that Darwin Award winning behavior out there. Maybe that ought to count for something huh?

3. You never drove anything larger than a 42" lawnmower until about 3 yrs ago

Wrong again! I've never had a lawn mower that big!

But, spent 4 summers operating a variety of heavy equipment from heavy forklifts to a large pole truck including augur. Spent several summers working on my B-I-L's farm. Drove a lot of tractors, but it was years ago and I didn't learn anything about the tractors at the time. Spent a good bit of time on an offroad (6 ton capacity) forklift when I built my own log cabin. Spent way too much time on a boom truck as well. Currently have been driving some of my B-I-Ls bigger Ag tractors. I don't consider any of that to be 'years' of experience but it does go to show how wrong you can be when you try to fit someone in a box.

4. (and this goes with three) this is your first tractor

That's correct. I've probably said that 1000 times here.

Did I get any of my assumptions right?

You're battin' 500. That's great in baseball. Not sure how great it is since one of your 'assumptions' was listed in my profile and the other is something I say in half of my posts.

Don't take offense, they aren't any worse than the assumptions you implied about me in this discussion or others in the others we both toke part in.

Even if your assumptions had been more than half right, I would not have taken offense. Why would I?

As for my assumptions about you, I don't really know what you mean. What assumptions? Did I get them right? At least half of them?

I have stated my opinions and you have stated your opinions. This isn't a winner/loser contest. It is time to agree to disagree.

Look, you are doing things that I consider unsafe. If your opinion about those things are that they make sense or are not unsafe then you should be able to defend the opinion in a rational way. If a guy says, "I do something unsafe, I know it isn't safe, I know it doesn't make sense and I don't think anyone else should do it" then FINE! End of conversation. But when you do unsafe things and condone unsafe things publicly and think that they are rational and do make sense, don't get in a huff when someone calls you on it. Either defend your opinion or realize that if you can't defend it then it is nothing more than an opinion and that opinions are a dime a dozen and even less for resale.

Have a good day.

No, you have a good day!

And I'm still gonna use my PTO guard!

Why? You'd think with 20 years of experience and proper planning you'd have no need for the thing.

An Optimist says the glass is half full...
A Pessimist says the glass is half empty...
An Engineer (Me) says you've got twice as much glass as you need.

And a scientist measures it and finds the glass is actually a little less than half full.

[mjncad]

Originally Posted by Runner

OK, I have an example of a safety feature that I believe is over-the-top and rediculous. My mom recently bought a Sabre (JD) lawn tractor with a hydro transmission that has a reverse "safety" button on the dash that you have to push before it will let you back up. If you try to back up before pushing the button, the engine dies.

I realize I am talking about a lawn tractor and not a CUT or bigger, but the principle is the same. I may be wrong about this general statement, but I can't believe there isn't one person on this board who wouldn't find some way to bypass this switch because the tractor was such a pain in the neck to use. I did it the second time I had to use the tractor.

This is not to say I'm against all safety items, ROPS, neutral-start lockouts, guards for moving parts, etc. make sense to me, but I do believe they can go too far sometimes.

Check out my photo gallery (link in signature) of how I disabled the RIO Switch (a.k.a. Lawyer Switch) on my JD 130L. The neat thing is that I can put it back in 5-minutes if I so want to. Also here is the forum link to the RIO switch on my L130 http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/l...wyer+switch%22

[Soundguy]

Mboulais's sig line brought it into perspective.. at least for me. Being an engineer.. he (we) like to think we can plan for most things.. sadly.. it's not the case.. the entire concept of unexpected eventualities will blow a hole in the best laid plans.. just ask the white star line...

Soundguy

Originally Posted by N80

And I'm not saying that is wrong. I'm just saying that you can't plan for everything. And if you work a tractor on property like mine, doing the wide variety of things like most of us do, planning is only going to account for a small percentage of what we actually end up doing at any given time.



Yes, I'd agree with that. But at the same time you have to ask yourself just how much of a complication is a ROPs, or a seatbelt or a seat switch. I've got all that on my tractor. It complicates absolutely nothing for me.



Again, you are absolutely right, but that is not an argument against the safety equipment. You can't protect every idiot out there but there are countless seasoned tractor operators out there whose bacon has been saved by ROPs, seatbelts and seat switches.



I'm sorry you feel that way. Go back and look at my last few posts and look at yours. Who is being rational? Just because someone can't, won't or doesn't want to be rational doesn't mean that others can't. And I've been on these boards long enough that others can tell you, I'm not a member of the Safety Nazis. Just because I recognize the intrinsic value of 3 simple safety features doesn't make me an extremist.



That's fine. But it sounds like a cop out to me. If you have a valid point, make it. But don't just make it by saying "I do this" or "I never do that." So maybe we should start over. I'll throw these questions out and there not just aimed at you. For anyone who has or intends to disable these three saety features I'd love to hear your logic for doing so. Maybe there are aspects that I have not thought of that would change my miind and the minds of others who generally appreciate the safety features on our tractors.

You say you don't like your ROPS. Why not? What problems does it cause? Are those problems sufficient enough to remove it and put yourself at risk? what about other people who might use your tractor? Many of us have kids and older parents who are capable of using our tractors.

You say you still have your ROPS, but don't wear your seatbelt. Why not? How much trouble is a simple seatbelt? What realworld problems does it actually cause for you. Is that trouble sufficient enough to make not wearing a seat belt (on a tractor with a ROPS!) a reasonable risk?

I don't remember what you said about the operator presence switch. Have you or would you disable it? It is simple to do. If so, why? What actual, real world problems does it cause for you? How significant are those problems compared to the myriad ways in which you can leave the seat of a tractor in ways that you never planned, never intended and have no control over?

So, there's your chance. If you have an opinion on these matters, share it and defend it. If its just an opinion, and nothing else, well....you know what they say about opinions, we all got one just like....well...you know.

[Soundguy]

I like rops.. though most of my tractors don't have them... though.. if i had a pile of them laying in my pasture.. I would install them..

Originally Posted by mboulais

It's not that I don't like ROPS, I just don't think they are the be-all, end-all of tractor safety. ROPS have away of catching on overhead obstructions and can in fact roll over a tractor becuase of it. I have caught tree branches. I know a guy at work that took the ROPS off his zero turn mower after a couple near misses in the first two times out with it. I am not removing mine, I like it for the lights mounted above my head. Now that I have made room for the tractor in the barn, I could put it up. It has been down since I stored the tractor in the garage while installing the borrowed backhoe this spring. I am not in a hurry to put it up, but I'm not taking it off either.

If ya got rops.. ya need seat belts.. no point in having either without the other.. Who wants to be crushed by their tractor rolling on top of them, where the rops would have saved you.. had you been in the seat... That ones a no brainer... Sure.. it takes another 1.5 seconds to pull the seatbelt.. but I'd rather be tied tot he machine in a 'safe'-(er) zone.. than not.

Originally Posted by mboulais

As far as seatbelts go, I am still mad that I am required to wear them in my vehicle by law. I am up and down on that tractor a lot on days I actually get to use it. I don't even think about it and it would be a pain for the same reasons the operator presence switch would.:

Originally Posted by mboulais

I cant see anything throwing me from the operator platform at 5-10 mph. Back to the stroke senario, this time same thing happens and I am wearing seatbelt. I slump over and seatbelt keeps me from falling out of seat. I keep traveling to end of field and run into the ditch. The tractor rolls over and I end up unconcious, upside down, strapped in and sinking into the 2' of water and 1' soft mud in bottom of ditch. This time I drown. What did I gain?:

All I can say to that one is that if you can't see being thrown from a slow vehicle on flat land.. you simply havn't operated one long enough. ( I read your exp... My comment still stands ) I've been thrown twice from a tractor/heavy equipment. 1st time was on a bulldozer, going slow.. perhaps 4-5mph.. blade hit a burried boulder.. machine stopped instantly.. the laws of physics were functioning, so I kept moving forward.. came off the machine and landed in FRONT of it to look back and see the tracks happilly spinning... I had to climb back over the blade to kill it... ( no seatbelt on that oldie... ). Other time was on my 8n.. driving in my flat as a pancake florida pasture in 1st gear.. again.. doing under 5mph.. front tire fell into a hole that my dog presumably dug.. i didn't see it in the weeds.. hole was placed just right so tractor wheel drive into the mouth.. hole was big enough and deep enough that the entire left of center front axle pivoted and dropped into it far enough that the the oil pan high centered. Tractor hit, stopped for an instant, ag tires bit in, and then the tractor pushed, front axle popped straight up and out with lots of force, and then tractor moved another 4' and the rear tire hit the same darn hole.. except this time the tire was big enough to go in and out.. real fast.... This all happened in about a second I figure. I was literally thrown up in the air, hands holding on to the steering wheel, landed on the floor boards, and when the rear tire went in, my right leg slipepd off the boardand my legt was rubbing the sidewall of the rear tire asmy hands were trying to grab onto somtheing to pull my self up enough to get at the key switch or clutch.. both of which I got at the same time, with my hands.. not my left foot.. i got lucky.. just scared the 'Stuff' out of me.. no injuries whatsoever.. A seat belt would have held me in place. I've mowed plenty of pastures and hit a washout or other hole and had my larger the tractor lurch bad, at much faster speed.. at least 9mph.. and other than being jolted.. no big deal.. can't go anywhere due to the seatbelt.

Again.. if you think you can't be thrown off a tractor a 5mph.. you simply havn't seen enough seat hours... I've seen front axles break off tractor moving at low speeds causing some pretty bad situations.. It don't take much for 3-4-5 thousand pounds of rolling steel and iron to get wonky on you...


Soundguy

[Toiyabe]

Originally Posted by Soundguy

Mboulais's sig line brought it into perspective.. at least for me. Being an engineer.. he (we) like to think we can plan for most things.. sadly.. it's not the case.. the entire concept of unexpected eventualities will blow a hole in the best laid plans.. just ask the white star line...

Soundguy

Umm, an Engineer ought to know about Standards of Care. An Engineer should know that you can't plan for everything (that's the difference between Engineering and Science), and that if certain safety features are widely available and suitable to the task you darn well better be using them regardless of what you think about them personally.

Is your own life worth any less than the life of your Client? If not, then why do you take better care of your Client's life than your own? Or do you really ignore standard practices in your professional work?

[N80]

I guess one of the reasons I get worked up about this is that after two years of active 'tractoring' I've gotten pretty proficient regarding the things that my tractor will do. And I am alert. I do try to plan my jobs. But my property and my tasks are widely varied. And there have been those times, those episodes where you get that unexpected butt pucker and after that tingling sensation and cold sweat go away you think how glad you are that you had a back up (Rops, seatbelt, whatever.) Just the other day I was moving brush and logs around on some very uneven ground (which is all I have). All of a sudden, the right rear dug up a half buried log or chunk of wood which rolled up under the tire at the same time the left front dropped into a little low place. In retrospect I don't think the tractor would have rolled, but at the moment the right rear came up and the left front went down...I sure thought it was going to roll. I dropped the FEL and steered left and it was fine. But it scared me. If that kind of thing can happen...and it can...then I want those simple safety features. Was I being careless? I don't think so but maybe. Is anyone immune from occasional lapses?

But, what cinches it for me is that I'm not the only one who runs my tractor. My 16 year old son runs it too and it won't be long before my 14 year old daughter drives it. I want them as safe as possible and any kid who sees his Dad using unsafe practices is going to think they are okay. So even if I thought all this stuff was a nuisance and I didn't really need them; I'd still use them because I wouldn't want my son copying my bad habits.