5 dead in Virginia farming accident

[horse7]

I have a friend who many years ago did the "Donald Duck" thing with a big helium balloon. Well he did for a few times, then just keeled over without warning. Being in a regular room with Earth standard air he recovered without incident.

The human body does not sense low oxygen levels, it uses a cost reduced method and just senses elevated CO2 levels. So, as long as a person can exhale CO2 and keep CO2 levels in a normal range, the body thinks everything is pretty dandy. But the O2 keeps being used up-- if the environment is deficient in O2 eventually the O2 in the tissues drops too low for the brain to keep functioning and unconsciouness follows-- there is very little if any warning.

Those folks would have been better off holding their breaths to conserve O2 in the lungs and pretending they were under water if they felt they absolutely had to do something... but it would be exceedingly dangerous nonetheless.

[DrainPondDesign]

Renze,

Please keep in mind that a gas mask only filters and does not supply oxygen like a SCBA does so it will not prevent asphyxiation if the methane has displaced the oxygen as it sounds like happened in this case.

Firec,

I never had reason to check the OSHA agriculture standards & you are right, there isn't much there that seems to apply to a small farm operation.

As part of your program do you think that local farmers would attend a free class on the dangers of asphyxiation? This tragedy should provide a compelling incentive for them to attend.

I noticed that some farm operations use anhydrous ammonia, if it's used in your area it may be a good idea to have some training on how to handle it.

Good luck.

[firec]

DPD, I think anybody who works in an environment with any type of dangerious gases should not only go thru a training / awareness class but also have on hand the equipment to help each other. A basic safety procedure like having yourself tied off and another person on top watching you for any signs of trouble would have a been a great start. At least then they could have pulled the person out without anybody going in. The comment one of the guys made about holding your breath sounds good but imagine in the heat of the moment trying to hold your breath and then climb down an 8' ladder and get to the victim tie a rope to them and climb out before you take a breath and also succumb? The gases in the pit are more than just methane, you also have or can have hydrogen sulfide, carbon dioxide, ammonia. Each of these gases can kill you. Hydrogen Sulfide is said to be responsible for most manure related deaths - it's heavier than air and it also paralyzes your sense of smell so after the first breath you don't smell it anymore. OSHA makes workers in dangerous environments carry monitor devices for protection, at least then you are alerted before the concentration gets to high, why can't they do the same for the farmers.

[horse7]

Originally Posted by firec

The comment one of the guys made about holding your breath sounds good but imagine in the heat of the moment trying to hold your breath and then climb down an 8' ladder and get to the victim tie a rope to them and climb out before you take a breath and also succumb? The gases in the pit are more than just methane, you also have or can have hydrogen sulfide, carbon dioxide, ammonia. Each of these gases can kill you.

The way I view this is as a last ditch expedient-- the time margin is increased to provide assistance. If help is 20 minutes away, and one can remain calm enough to weigh the odds, one might consider it worth the risk. But there isn't any margin for error, those margins were already used up getting into the situation to start with. At least holding your breath you know you are running out of air vs. just losing consciouness without warning. [as for the manure pit, even lightly hyperventilating and essentially leaping 8' down (a risk right there to save 2-3 seconds), it would be iffy. Gravity is not one's friend, and slipping on the rungs getting out could very well be fatal. Meanwhile for the original victim oxygen deprivation is steadily and inexorbably reaching the point of irreparable brain cell destruction.]

It is usually not one big mistake that kills a person, but a string of little ones that adds up.

[DrainPondDesign]

Firec,

Even with life at stake I'm not sure a small farm operation could support the price of buying gas detection equipment or have the discipline to maintain something so seldom needed. I think that your idea of awareness training has the best chance of succeeding.

If the farmer knew that he could get help then perhaps they would ask you to ventilate the pit with a smoke ejector or even unplug the pipe for them?
Not something you would forward to but just a thought.

[firec]

Not to make light of the situation but remember when coal miners used to use canaries in the mine for gas detection, most farmers have enough pidgens around? From a volunteer fire dept perspective, I can't see us cleaning out a pit, since it is not a one time event and we are strapped for members as is. Also, we all have our real jobs to do and assist our communities the best that we can. And one of the main reasons are for the legal eagles who would be all over us if we did assist and then somebody got hurt. It's sad to say but at least in New York, volunteers must always think about the liability of their actions. As for detection devices, I think it is a cost of doing business and a small cost for loss of an entire family. If the Virginia farmer had at least tide a rope around himself and had one of the hands topside watching over him this whole incident may have been nothing but tragically it took his whole family and none of them probably new what they were getting into other than Dad has a problem. Farmers have a tough life but the ones I know wouldn't change for anything, yes we all stretch the envelope at times. I have a lot of fun on my tractors - "working" and have done some stupid things that I look back on and say what was I thinking. but there at times when something inside this isn't right and I stop for a moment and get another perspective. Accidents happen all the time but this one could have been avoided.

[DrainPondDesign]

Firec,

Well said & something I did not feel comfortable talking about.

This is why I thank you for being a volunteer fireman.

[Toiyabe]

These domino accidents are about as tragic as it gets.

Sure the first death is avoidable, but after that who can resist trying to save the life of a loved one?

A similar thing happened out here a few years back. A couple was out walking with their dog in the desert. They came upon a hot spring, and the dog jumped in and got scalded to death. The woman jumps in to save the dog, and the man jumps in to save the woman. All three end up dead and the lawyers swoop in to feed.

[DrainPondDesign]

Today I called our local USDA, County soil bank and NY Cornell Cooperative Extension offices to ask what they offered farmers in the way of manure pit operation safety & found that they had not even a brochure to offer. The Coop did say that they were aware of the problem & would be looking into it.

On the plus side I checked Lab Safety Supply & found that they now offer single gas 2 year no maintenance & 100 day disposable detectors for Hydrogen Sulfide or Carbon Monoxide for under $200. That sounds affordable considering what is at stake.

[firec]

DPD,

You are tracking some of the same ground I did. I've also spoke to the county fire cordinator and NYS OFPC and NY ENCON with not much help. Most of the information I've found on the internet comes from out west but nothing from my side for response. I spoke to a local chemical company about there guidelines for confined areas and there people do not go anywhere with a monitor hung on their neck and backup personel watching them. As you found out the cost is not that much for some basic safety equipment. I want to add to some of the other comments that the problem from my side which is the emergency response is that by the time somebody realizes there is a problem and calls 911 which tones us out it can be a good 10 or more minutes to get on the scene with enough resources to attempt a rescue and from everything I'm reading thats to long and now it is a recovery. As you found the monitors for $200. how much is a family worth, we all have smoke detectors and co detectors in our houses, they have to be in the house for the closing, you have air bags/seat belts - how many guys here have been happy they had a seat belt on the tractor? I may be on a rant but I reviewed the manure pit in my district and they have nothing, not even a rope with a lifering to throw to one of them if they fall in. It's sad that there is so little regard for human life at times. I think the family in Virginia with the exception of the father probably had no idea what was going on but the one near me does and it is a lot bigger and I can see the same thing happening here.