How Far is Too Far??

[Soundguy]

I have also backed up hills in the very few that i have encountered here in florida ( drainage swales.. )

Soundguy

[IslandTractor]

Originally Posted by Soundguy

I have also backed up hills in the very few that i have encountered here in florida ( drainage swales.. )

Soundguy

I think hills/slopes may be the one area that Soundguy may not have the most experience with. Not sure exactly what a drainage swale is but it doesn't sound like something created by glacial action or movement of tectonic plates. Where do drainage swales fit on the "pucker factor" scale?

[sandman2234]

Some of those swales can get your attention. There is a distribution center west of town and they mow the sides of the overpass with a Steiner with duals on both axles. I have watched it and it still slides a little. The operator said it beat having to do it by hand.
David from jax

[3RRL]

Speaking of drainage swales, I have little gullies that carry water in the rainy season. They are very little with hardly any bank on either side and not very deep. But I'll tell you what, when I'm mowing or working parallel to them, I really watch out. They may seem to be less than a foot deep, but if you get your tire in it, their is an overwhelming pucker factor feeling that you are going to tip over! Especially if the opposite tires go up on a small rock or mound. There is no margin of error where a meter will help at that time.

Point being that even a little "rut" like that can send you tipping over under the right conditions. They are the most benign looking but in reality can be the most dangerous since they are ignored or overlooked at times because they look so harmless. It's the ones you don't consider being dangerous that often are.

[Soundguy]

Originally Posted by IslandTractor

I think hills/slopes may be the one area that Soundguy may not have the most experience with. Not sure exactly what a drainage swale is but it doesn't sound like something created by glacial action or movement of tectonic plates. Where do drainage swales fit on the "pucker factor" scale?

As the last 2 posters mentioned... While florida is more or less a pancake... a drainage swale can be a stee slope.. especially if it is feeding a dra.. heck.. the DRA walls are darn steep to. i've seen some that the county mows with a bulldozer with a PTO beacuse they have lost 2 tractor in it.. One had a side arm mower, and the other was a low ground profile 7740 with duals.. both went down a side so much they had to be pulle dout with a crane..

Even the bulldozer has to crawl straight up and down..

A ztr won't touch it.. it would be "mr frog's wild ride" for a ztr it is so steep..


So yeah... drainage swales can be anything from a shallow area on a side of a road to feed a culvert.. to a 'cliff' dropoff.. But you are correct.. florida has very little 'rolling' or sloped land that wasn't made that way by a piece of yellow machinery with a blade on it at one time or another .. etc.. (wink)

Soundguy

[1bush2hog]

Originally Posted by horse7

I go up steep hills backwards since usually there is something at the top or before the top that stops me from going all the way to the top of the hill (could be trees, property line, stone wall, whatever). Going frontwards there would be a tractor length uncut.

Maybe it's me, but the tractor feels more stable going backwards uphill too.

Same here - back up the hill and drive back down. There are places that I might be able to safely traverse, however, still makes me nervous even backing up which keeps me thinking about safety - and those that depend on my safety.

[MarkV]

Originally Posted by JayDavis

I do a lot of shredder work when I am putting in overtime in a different department where I work. About 60 hours worth in the past 30 days. A lot of it is on slopes and I am using a JD7800 or 7810 with dual rears and a 15ft batwing shredder. I've mowed slopes where I could barely stay on the seat and that the steering wheel was useless. You had to use the split brakes and ride the uphill side brakes to keep the tractor angled uphill enough to counter the slide downhill gravity was causing.

Most of the time when you see people mowing slopes sideways instead of up and down is because they are mowing on contour to reduce erosion. When you go straight up or down sometimes you make ruts that water will flow down in a rain and cause washes to form. This is how it was explained to me at work...and they always tell me that if I am uncomfortable on a slope or in a certain situation just to leave it be and they'll get someone with more experience to get that spot later.

Slopes are tricky things sometimes I feel safer on a steep slope with solid uniform ground then I do on a moderate slope with loose pitted ground with wash outs. If your gut says it isn't safe, don't do it. No job whether it be for money or around the house that is so important it is worth risking your safety for

Like the rest of you I have seen some state mowers working slopes that just don't seem possible to me. That leads me to a question. How much does pulling a batwing mower add to the stability of a tractor on a slope? Can those guys traverse a steeper slop with a batwing mower than a conventional 6' rotary mower?

MarkV

[Soundguy]

I believe it would be more correct to say that using a tru drag mount mower ( not a semi-mount _ vs a 3pt removes the mower itself from the tip equation.. IE.. you don't hav ethe weight from the uphill side of the mower working on the tractor. Since many of the mounts/ hitches for the batwings have a decent drgree of flexibility.. I'm not sure they do much to 'couple' the tractor to the mower to prevent a roll.. though.. i guess they do 'some'.. just not enough to worry about. Still .. If I was mowing a 'questionable' slope.. i'd prefer it was a drag mower vs a 3pt.. which.. if it did get tippy.. IE a low side wheel went in a hole.. it wouldn't 'hike' that mower deck way high up in the air ont he high side.. which would be detrimental to the situation.

I mow virtually all flat land.. though have mowed a few drainage swales... for what i was doing.. both a fixed deck 10' and a batwiong felt fine.. then again.. the batwingfollows the contours WAY better than the fixed deck units.. etc.. so it is my preference in areas with anything but pancake land..

Soundguy

[Spiveyman]

I've been thinking this same thing. This weekend I took the family to the Cincinnati Zoo and along I-75 the mowing crews were doing some of the death-defying things already mentioned here. Then last night was trying to spread out some piles of dirt left over from cleaning out a pond. There were several times I would have registered on that pucker scale, especially being an inexperienced tractor guy.

So, how far is too far? As Soundguy mentioned it totally depends on your set up, but the math is the same whatever you drive. For me, I did some quick estimates on my 6610. My tires are about 60" in diameter and with rims I estimate weigh 1,200 lbs each. The body of the tractor should be in the 6,000 range I think with a rough guess at center of gravity (COG) of about 40". So figuring out the moment of each wheel and the body, that gives an overall center of gravity of about 37". My newly narrowed wheel base is 84." With that, in a static condition, you can figure out how far is too far: The red dots are the approx COG of each wheel and the body. The green dot is approx COG for the whole thing. The compliment of the angle made between your COG, the edge of the wheel and your centerline is how far too far is...



The answer for me should be 49°. However, two things come in to play.

First is traction. In order to maintain traction the force of friction between the tires and the ground would have to overcome the component of gravity that would act on the tractor normal to the surface of contact. I seriously doubt I'd have that much traction unless the ground was soft and the tires could dig in. So in this case, hard ground would be better because you'd want it to slip rather than tilt. Many of you have seen this actually happen, the "dirt track" method of mowing.

Second though is momentum, life on a tractor is not "static." This is the one that will reach up and bite you on the rump. When you are trucking along and hit a bump or a rut, the intertia of the tractor can easily cause it to flop over. Anything on the 3ph above the COG will only make this worse.

It's good to see for me how that math works out, but I want a huge safety factor to keep a quick dip from sending me over.

Play it safe.

[2manyrocks]

Terrain will fool you. One minute you think you're okay and the next thing you've got a problem because the terrain you can't see under all the grass puts your machine in some odd position you didn't anticipate. Whatever the calculations might be on a flat surface, I don't know how anyone could really calculate the maximum slope for the effects of momentum, changing terrain, and a bushhog hanging off the back of the tractor. Then add the possibility of an operator goof (turning too sharply, whatever....) in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I wonder if the maximum slope is covered in anybody's owner's manual, and if it is, I wonder what assumptions were made for the calculation. I bet most of the manuals only say "AVOID STEEP SLOPES" for liability reasons. Not a lot of help for someone trying to figure out how far is too far with a particular tractor, but then how is the engineer supposed to know what size and weight bushhog is going to be used, etc.