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  1. #11
    Gold Member
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    Two Harbors, MN

    Default Re: How to kill yourself without knowing

    I would guess there is a significant difference in the stoplight drag strip examples vs a tractor operator like I will be when I make a purchase.

    My thought is that most have "pre-thought" mentally and physically experienced at the stoplight/drag strip times...and I would have no "re-call" to speed me into the correct move...thus an inexperienced operator would be at risk...both because of lack of judgement going into problem situations...and a longer reaction time than an experienced operator. 5 seconds does sound a bit high...but may more closely reflect the risk of a new operator???

    Sounds like I would need to be cautious I kind of am anyway!

    Tom R

  2. #12
    Platinum Member LostInTheWoods's Avatar
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    Jun 2009
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    Central Kentucky
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    Kubota BX2660

    Default Re: How to kill yourself without knowing

    Quote Originally Posted by hawkeye08 View Post
    I'll the OP respond himself, but when I read it, I saw, the "think" part and know that unless you operate or train on what to do (more than just reacting), it might take a moment or two to realize what to do, it may not be intuitive for all of us. Whether that thinking takes more than a second or not, I don't know the answer.

    The stoplight reaction time or drag racing is a good example. We know what to do when the light turns red for us to stop or we get the green to go, but do we know what to do always when we are operating our tractor and something goes wrong. I suspect if we did, many accidents would not happen.
    I don't have any figures to back it up, only what I can guess based on instinct. Five seconds still sounds like a long reaction time, even for the unexpected or for situations which you aren't familiar with. If a group of wild mountain gorillas charged at me from out of the bushes, I think I could react in under 5 seconds. Not something I'm familiar with, or had any training in...but I think I could come to a decision pretty quickly. Granted, there's no equipment involved that I would have to manipulate, but still, 5 seconds? *shrug* Seems like a long time.

    Ultimately, I think the OP was trying to stress the "look-before-you-leap" philosophy. Think about what you're going to do before you place yourself in a bad situation.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them"
    - Thomas Jefferson

    Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work.
    - Thomas Edison

  3. #13
    Silver Member
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    Jun 2010
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    218
    Location
    Northern Illiniois
    Tractor
    Kubota L5740 HST

    Default Re: How to kill yourself without knowing

    I didn't make this time up. I have a Masters in Aeronautical Science and studied cockpit ergonomic design.
    This time was used over and over in military and civilian aviation for abort and other issues. The time stands.
    This is not just a reaction time to a simple stop light or drag race. The time needed to see, analyze the problem and take the CORRECT appropriate action is indeed five seconds. We used this time in the USAF and we still use it in the airline industry.
    This is why aircraft were installed with autobrakes in the cockpit so that after 85 knots or so when the pilot pulled the thrust levers to idle the aircraft starts to brake automatically because waiting for the human feet to press on the brake pedals was eating up a lot of runway.
    You can slap a fly or a friends hands very quickly and it doesn't take fives seconds...to analyze the dynamics that you're putting your FEL through and to take the appropriate action so you don't become a mort takes more TIME than you have if you're not wearing the belt along with having a rops.

  4. #14
    Platinum Member LostInTheWoods's Avatar
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    Central Kentucky
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    Kubota BX2660

    Default Re: How to kill yourself without knowing

    OK, I have no reason to doubt you. I'm willing to accept a person with your creds knows what he's talking about.

    I wonder, however, if the complexity of the tasks we're talking about here would alter the expected reaction time. Let's say you're operating a sizable aircraft. The complexity of flying seems to me to be greater than the complexity behind operating a tractor. There would be a larger number of unknowns that might occur when landing a heavily laden 747 during a thunderstorm than when I am mowing brush on my little kubota.

    If I'm operating on a hill or in an awkward spot on my tractor, I'm already expecting problems...my on-board pucker-ometer is pretensioning. I'm preparing for a known stimulus. As a result, I'd expect my reaction time to beat the 5 second mark quite easily. If I'm driving down a hill with a load on the FEL and one of my tires slips off into a hole while I'm staring off into space...that's a stimulus I'm not prepared for. I'd have to overcome panic, which would slow my response, then analyze and respond. That would surely take longer. Is that more-or-less what you're saying? Would it take 5 seconds? I don't know. With my luck, no matter how long it took, it would take exactly .001 seconds longer to respond than I need.

    As far as using seat belts and ROPS, I wholeheartedly agree.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them"
    - Thomas Jefferson

    Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work.
    - Thomas Edison

  5. #15
    Elite Member timswi's Avatar
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    Beaver County Pa
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    Kubota BX23 & RTV1100

    Default Re: How to kill yourself without knowing

    In defence of the OP...As a recovering drag racer I can say that .40 sec is a perfect light. But this is also a situation that every muscle in your body is prepared to react to. When the last yellow goes off, let 'er rip.

    However when you are operating equipment, or anything else for that matter, you are not prepared for every variable...I'd say 3 seconds to see what's happening and devise a mental plan to deal with it and react, albeit not always sucessfully.

    Actually pretty incredible if you think about it.

    I'm still above room temperature, but I am missing fingers so my decisions in that timeframe aren't always perfect.

    In some vastly more complicated situations, like flying a plane, there is much more data and knowledge to process, ergo the longer decision time.

    No science, just experience.
    BX23TLB & RTV1100 with 72" Power Angle Plow

  6. #16
    Bronze Member sbakf's Avatar
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    Dec 2009
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    86
    Location
    Columbiana, AL
    Tractor
    2010 L5740/cab & BX2660/FEL with 60" MMM

    Default Re: How to kill yourself without knowing

    Quote Originally Posted by hawkeye08 View Post
    I'll the OP respond himself, but when I read it, I saw, the "think" part and know that unless you operate or train on what to do (more than just reacting), it might take a moment or two to realize what to do, it may not be intuitive for all of us. Whether that thinking takes more than a second or not, I don't know the answer.

    The stoplight reaction time or drag racing is a good example. We know what to do when the light turns red for us to stop or we get the green to go, but do we know what to do always when we are operating our tractor and something goes wrong. I suspect if we did, many accidents would not happen.

    It takes the average human being 5 seconds to see, process (think) and then react.

    I tend to agree - based on my own experiences, operator could easily waste a second+ before he realized he's starting a roll, another second or two saying "oh sh-t and/or God help me" before halting the operation (say a FEL lift) and easily another second or two to figure "what do I have to do to get out of the mess I'm in." Course, if he's either a little slow up top or destined for a day of bad luck, he'll surely complete the roll-over in less than 5 seconds.

  7. #17
    Platinum Member Big Wave D's Avatar
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    May 2010
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    Kubota L35, Kubota B6200E

    Default Re: How to kill yourself without knowing

    I have to agree with nebraskasparks.

    It's one thing for us to react to a sound or sight when we've been conditioned and know what it happening and why. It's a far different cry when you're doing something new and somewhat unsure of yourself.

    A person operating a new piece of machinery or equipment isn't going to be able to 'instinctively' grab and move the correct lever or handle or clutch pedal without first identifying what is going on that is outside the norm, then giving the correct input to rectify the situation.

    I've read a lot of discussions on this board of how pedals are located on HST machines. Everything on one side, brakes opposite control pedal, brakes on both sides. So, what happens when you borrow your buddies tractor that has a grapple on it (which you've never used before) your out in the woods just a clearing away, his pedal set up is different than yours because it's a different color of iron. You're also trying to learn how to use the rear remote to operate the grapple while adjusting to the FEL controls to boot.

    Scenario: Now your slowly entering a pile, 4WD is engaged and your trying to work the FEL and grapple controls simultaneously to get a full load, unknowingly the grapple has 'bitten' down on a major root or vine that you can't see because other branches and leaves/debris are covering it, even with the RC on back when you start to lift the FEL, the hydraulics are easily able to overwhelm the counter weight and begin to lift the rear of the tractor at an alarming rate, oh - did I say that your on a very slight incline, nothing really hardly at all, but when the back of the tractor starts to pivot downhill with gravities prodding, the speed at which the tractor is tipping over at is a lot more than you'd ever expected.

    This scenario is fictitious but certainly in the realm of happening to anyone on any day. By the time you realize, identify, figure out what to do, and then act - you might be lucky to get that all done in 5 seconds.

    It's a matter of comparing apples to apples and oranages to oranges.

    Whether you think that it is to slow or not, we all need to keep common sense and safety in mind at all times.

  8. #18
    Gold Member
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    On the Oregon coast
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    JD 870

    Default

    I don't have a masters degree in anything but I can tell you that one of the most important things I learned in law enforcement training is that action time is always faster than reaction time. It's a principle that I apply to my life everyday whether it's with a chainsaw, a tractor, a firearm, or a motor vehicle. At least on the farm I have the luxury of slowing things down to a speed that I feel I can react to safely. Doesn't always work and I forget my own rules at times but all I can to is try to be safe. :-)7

  9. #19
    Elite Member /pine's Avatar
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    Default Re: How to kill yourself without knowing

    This time was used over and over in military and civilian aviation for abort and other issues. The time stands.
    please post the sources for this data...
    Slash Pine
    blunt and succinct but sincere...in the immortal words of Popeye..."I yam what I yam"

  10. #20
    Silver Member
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    Northern Illiniois
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    Kubota L5740 HST

    Default Re: How to kill yourself without knowing

    One last tid bit on reaction time. The last aviation accident investigation I was on involved an F-4 flying at 420 knots 250 feet above the ground. The aircraft was relatively heavy and therefore susceptible to what we called an accelerated stall..meaning that even at high speed the venerable "Rhino" could turtle on its back and quit producing lift.
    The post mortem showed that the pilots head was still looking straight ahead and that the arm showed no fractures indicating that the pilot was not pushing on the throttle or pushing the stick forward to break the stall and correct the problem.
    Time from stall at 250 feet above the ground to impact....5 seconds.
    Highly experienced fighter pilot with an excellent reputation. Fascinating material in regard to physics etc...except I knew the man and his three young boys.
    5 seconds is nothing when it's not going the way you "thought" it would.

    Demand information from your dealers and manufacturers or be content to chalk another one up to fate that could have been prevented with technology that we didn't even have 5 years ago.

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