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  1. #21
    Super Member texasjohn's Avatar
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    Oct 2005
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    5,588
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    Central Texas, Jarrell
    Tractor
    Kubota 5030HSTC

    Default Re: How to kill yourself without knowing

    The OP said..be careful...I agree. The center of mass can be extremely dynamic, depending on FEL weight, rear counterbalance, moments resulting from height of both FEL and rear weight, angle of terrain, etc. Once that COM moves outside the tractor footprint, unhappy things happen very quickly unless a corrective action (drop FEL or rear weights, or both) is done extremely quickly.

    If a group of wild mountain gorillas attacked me on the ranch, I agree such a completely unfamiliar experience would take me 5 seconds to recognize the situation, confirm real gorillas vs Big Foot/people in costumes, confirm personal attack intent vs run on by, grab my pocket carry which is always with me and chamber a shell. Now, I'm gonna need some extra time to decide whether to shoot thru the cab glass or open a door to shoot out...having an HST, it'll come to a stop rather quickly by just getting off the rocker.

    Now, for the common, PREconsidered situation where I have about 1000 lbs counter weight added to my box blade and 2800 lbs lifted to about 1 foot height on FEL, I creep down/up hill with the HST and am tensed/poised to stop motion AND drop the FEL load...I'll bet I can do that right at the .4 sec mark. Did that just yesterday, in fact.

    Stay safe out there
    Joy is having the tools you need and needing the tools you have!

    Kubota 5030 HSTC, BB, Danueser PHD, LA853 QA HD FEL w JD toothbar, 3pt chisel, 3 pt disk, 6' shredder, Kubota FEL hay spike, 3pt hay fork w carryall, Kubota RTV 1140

  2. #22
    Platinum Member
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    May 2007
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    846
    Location
    eastern PA-lower Poconos
    Tractor
    JD2320 w/R4 $21,100 w/7.16%off

    Default Re: How to kill yourself without knowing

    Your fast reaction at the stop light or the drag strip is a result of meeting a familiar yet unexpected situation. How long would it take you to react if an elephant suddenly appeared in front of your car. A bit longer I would think.
    My tractor is a general purpose utility work horse. I don't want it hobbled by things that the factory designers don't want me to do. Sometimes I think it necessary to do things that are slightly unsafe.
    Suppose they built in a tilt meter coupled to an engine kill switch. Then at times I might have a tilted tractor that wouldn't start! Two problems - no thanks.
    Eastern PA -JD2320 w/R4; 200CX w/61" bucket & Markham toothbar or JD adj forks; 46BH w/16", Imatch, ballast box & York rake-blade-scarifer, 54" front plow and trailer receiver. Case 580K w/fel+bh, mule 610XC

  3. #23
    Silver Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
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    218
    Location
    Northern Illiniois
    Tractor
    Kubota L5740 HST

    Default Re: How to kill yourself without knowing

    I agree with texasjohn in that knowledge of a situation and having a plan should ANYTHING not go as planned will save a tense situation turning bad or even fatal. Keep your load low, angles minimized etc...training and knowledge do a lot to prevent fatalities and accidents. Very good discussion. If you're not on level dry ground you better have a plan and if your not sure...jump on TBN and ask the question. You will not find it in an owners manual.

    Still looking for the best tractor safety program out there if anyone knows other than the circulars that are so very general in nature put out by various government agencies.

  4. #24
    Platinum Member LostInTheWoods's Avatar
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    Jun 2009
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    841
    Location
    Central Kentucky
    Tractor
    Kubota BX2660

    Default Re: How to kill yourself without knowing

    Quote Originally Posted by texasjohn View Post

    If a group of wild mountain gorillas attacked me on the ranch, I agree such a completely unfamiliar experience would take me 5 seconds to recognize the situation, confirm real gorillas vs Big Foot/people in costumes, confirm personal attack intent vs run on by, grab my pocket carry which is always with me and chamber a shell. Now, I'm gonna need some extra time to decide whether to shoot thru the cab glass or open a door to shoot out...having an HST, it'll come to a stop rather quickly by just getting off the rocker.
    If a group of wild mountain gorillas attacked me on the homestead, I'd **** myself, scream like a six-year-old girl, and run like track star. But to each his own.

    I'd argue that after the initial shock, when you are confirming in your mind that they are real gorillas and you're reaching for your peacemaker that you've already initiated the "corrective measures" for that situation. But we could split hairs all day.

    I think we would all agree ROPS and seatbelts are a good idea. And no matter how good we all think we are, you need to be on your toes when operating any type of equipment that could cause bodily harm. Especially if it's a machine you're not familiar with.

    Looking again, I get the idea that nebraskasparks' main purpose behind the thread is to suggest tractor manufactures should incorporate some type of device(s) that would help prevent operators from exceeding safe limits on their machines. Ragkar makes a good point about kill switches potentially causing more trouble than they might prevent. Perhaps some audio/visual alarm would be better.

    I have no idea what it would cost for something like that. But, as with most decisions, it would come down to cost vs. benefit. Where do you draw the line? If it cost $10 per tractor, then sure. But what if were $100/unit? $350/unit?

    If its my life, well cost is no issue. But realistically, how many lives could it be expected to save if operators are already using seatbelts and ROPS? If it costs $100/tractor, and the expected benefit is to increase overall survival of accidents by less than a percentage point, is it a feasible trade-off?

    You could make every home in America install an automatic sprinkler system. But if the homes already have well-maintained smoke alarms, and the family knows their escape plan, then how many lives would you save by adding that extra layer of protection? What's the cost/benefit analysis?
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them"
    - Thomas Jefferson

    Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work.
    - Thomas Edison

  5. #25
    Veteran Member
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    May 2008
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    1,034
    Location
    Prince Edward Island, Canada
    Tractor
    Kioti DK45SC

    Default Re: How to kill yourself without knowing

    Maybe the OP, given his background in aviation, is thinking of something like stall warning alarms in planes. A visual and/or auditory warning for slope angle could be included in tractors, but it still wouldn't necessarily account for the other variables, like how rough the ground is, how high (or heavy) the FEL is or how fast you're going.
    BOB

  6. #26
    Super Star Member
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    Sep 2000
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    10,142
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    Triangle Of North Carolina
    Tractor
    JD 4700

    Default Re: How to kill yourself without knowing

    Quote Originally Posted by LostInTheWoods View Post

    You could make every home in America install an automatic sprinkler system. But if the homes already have well-maintained smoke alarms, and the family knows their escape plan, then how many lives would you save by adding that extra layer of protection? What's the cost/benefit analysis?
    And the building code in some states is now going to require sprinklers in new home construction.

    Having a sprinkler in our dream house was a design point for many years. Then I called up the insurance company and asked how much money would I save if we installed a sprinkler system. It was not much, something like $50 a year. That told me that the odds of our house catching fire were pretty low.

    I think reaction times on tractors are much shorter than on airplanes. These are two different reaction times are completely different equipment with tractors being really simple compared to an airplane.

    I have been in numerous situations with the tractor that could cause a roll over. In fact every time I mow I have to be careful. When using the FEL I have had several incidents were the rear of the tractor became "light" and once the left rear wheel came off the ground. But all it takes to correct the FEL problems I have had is a push down. It only takes a fraction of a second to realize what is happening and react. Otherwise I would have rolled the tractor. And I have not rolled said tractor.

    A five second time might be valid when one is surprised by an incident which requires thought to figure out WHAT has happened and then an action. The WHAT could take some time.

    An experienced tractor operator should be able to know the WHAT is happening in a rollover in a fraction of a second. And they would know they were doing something that could change the center of gravity very quickly on the tractor and they would be ready to react.

    Obviously there are incidents that are not humanly possible to react too. But an experience operator should not get into those circumstances in the first place. An example would be driving at a high speed with the FEL high in the air with a heavy load and then turning tightly. IF one did that and the tractor starts to roll even if the operator COULD react quickly it then becomes a question of the hydraulics would react quickly enough to stop the rollover. Certainly at a high enough speed you are going over regardless of human or hydraulic reaction time.

    But I will guarantee most of us could utter an "Oh <adult word>" just as the roll over starts. It will be a very fast reaction.

    We had a car accident about 18 months ago where we had the green light on a 55mph road. A lady turned into the intersection and hit us. She did not see us because a box truck was blocking her view so she decided to go anyway. I saw her car accelerate, the car's front end went up as she gunned the engine. I hit the brakes, anti lock brakes are wonderful, changed the line of travel slightly to change the point of impact, and waited for the crash.

    My reaction to this was under a second. No If Ands Or Buts. Our car tires skid marks started just in front of the truck that was blocking the lady's view, continued to the point of impact where there was a direction change and the skid stopped when the car stopped. If I had spent 1 second reacting I don't think I would be making this post. I was able to slow down enough so she hit the left front quarter of our car. A fraction of a second later she would have impacted my car door.

    Part of training in many disciplines is to develop muscle memory so you can react instantly without thought to a given situation. Those situations can be quite complex. An example being a law enforcement officer deciding that he/she has to shoot someone, draw a weapon, and do so. That can is a complex set of signals that have to be processed before a decision is made to react. But it better not take five seconds.

    Flying an airplane and hearing a boom/bang, figuring out what went boom/bang and applying an action could take time. But that is an airplane not driving a tractor or a car. If the tractor starts to roll I am going to drop the FEL and 3ph NOW. I always have a hand sitting right next to if not on the FEL stick. If something goes boom/bang on my car I am hitting the brakes and pulling off the road. I don't need to think about it.

    Later,
    Dan

  7. #27
    Elite Member
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    Default Re: How to kill yourself without knowing

    I think the current technology (available to other than NASA and advanced researchers) is limited to the current state of weight, angles, grade, implement height, etc.
    Where it will become USEFUL is when it can "read ahead" far enough and process that data fast enough to prevent the upcoming edge, gopher hole, sink hole, soft spot, slope change, stump, etc. from becoming the final rollover factor.

    Right now the "look ahead" has to be done by the tractor operator and of course all the data mentioned in the base post is useful as context.
    The "easily affordable" stuff is probably a tilt gauge, but even that is best ignored in favor of looking at where you are going.
    Height and weight of FEL load sensing is probably cheap, though may be more than many would want to spend by the time the real time computer is added in to make it a little bit useful.

    For now I think we're limited to needing be a little more paranoid than necessary.
    IOW - DO develop you sense of "pucker factor" and don't take chances.

  8. #28
    Super Member texasjohn's Avatar
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    Central Texas, Jarrell
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    Kubota 5030HSTC

    Default Re: How to kill yourself without knowing

    Nebraskasparks, thanks for sharing the info about your pilot friend where 5 seconds was insufficient to analyze and react to resolve a fatal situation. Inexpressible loss for you and his family. His service to all of us in our defense is honored. Five seconds can be too short a time, case closed.

    Reg, you make a good point. Thinking about it, when in a known possibly risky situation, I eye the ground ahead and drive accordingly. The real time computer you suggest must also include ground penetrating radar to predict firmness of material... a lump ahead could be friable soil which will shatter, or a rock which will cause a tip over.... as could moving from firm soil into a gooey seep where tires will sink.
    Joy is having the tools you need and needing the tools you have!

    Kubota 5030 HSTC, BB, Danueser PHD, LA853 QA HD FEL w JD toothbar, 3pt chisel, 3 pt disk, 6' shredder, Kubota FEL hay spike, 3pt hay fork w carryall, Kubota RTV 1140

  9. #29
    Bronze Member john4153's Avatar
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    Jun 2010
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    73
    Tractor
    Case DX40

    Default Re: How to kill yourself without knowing

    Quote Originally Posted by nebraskasparks View Post

    Moving or changing the angle or slope of the ground just a few degrees off moves the moment arm away from the tractor a huge amount depending on the weight in your FEL or three point and that's where I saw the pearly gates for a millisecond operating an old ford.
    I agree with the need to be constantly aware of safety. For most of us, that is obvious. Understanding the situation is critical to that goal.

    I do not see the geometry of what you are talking about here. Can you make a sketch to show which moment arm you are referencing? What do you mean my "huge?" To a machinist, that might be 0.010 inches; to a carpenter it might be 10 feet.

    John

  10. #30
    Veteran Member
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    Caldwell Co. NC
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    2006 Kama554; 92 Belarus 250AS

    Default Re: How to kill yourself without knowing

    I agree with the OP. 5 seconds sounds right if you have to think about what to do. Best case we are a lot better than that but quite possibly still too slow to reverse the acceleration in the bad direction. Worst case we take the wrong action speed the event.

    The computer part of automatic stability control could just about be handled by an Iphone app. Making all controls machine operable is somewhat more money. I'm guessing $1000 in high production. Many cars have similar systems but they don't have moving limbs. That said, this article predicts autonous cars by 2018:
    http://www.kansascity.com/2010/08/02...e-streets.html
    (That will signal a happy hour renaissance )
    I'm thinking by 2050 it will be illegal to drive your own car any major road.

    Stability control and autonomous operation of heavy machinery will lag the automotive industry but it's certainly coming. In some areas such as driving combines I think there is already an auto pilot available but that is not a very complicated task.

    The F-4 - Very sorry about your buddy. I have a vivid memory of our first Tactical Air Controller training at ROMAD school. We had a Time On Target with an F-4 dropping Bomb Dummy Units. At the end of the bombing run the nose would come up, the engines would throttle up, and the plane would continue to sink in that attitude FOREVER! Or at least until it looked like he was tickling the treetops. Everyone on the Observation Point goes Whooaa! The pilot made every pass like that.
    2006 Kama 554, 92 Belarus 250AS, Bombardier Outlander Max 400.

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