LostInTheWoods
Platinum Member
BINGO! We have a winner!:thumbsup:
How to kill yourself without knowing
- Thread starter nebraskasparks
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BINGO! We have a winner!:thumbsup:
/pine
Super Star Member
- Joined
- Mar 4, 2009
- Messages
- 15,763
sure nuff (could not agree more)...comparing athletics to operator reaction time is like comparing "apples to oranges" 
patrick_g
Elite Member
Hi guys, after some initial apples to oranges discussion errors this became an interesting topic.
The slower figure (5 sec) is not only appropriate for something complicated as a modern war bird or the space shuttle. It isn't the overall complexity of the machine that is the driving factor it is the complexity of the analysis.
Pre-decided actions like dumping the clutch when the Christmas tree goes green or shoving the FEL joystick to drop the bucket go very quickly. I try to always have my hand on the FEL joystick when the tractor is in motion with a load in the bucket and am ready to drop the load in an instant (way less than 5 sec.)
Newby operators not aware of that defensive operating posture and not expecting to tip over sideways on level ground at slow speeds when first confronted with an imminent sideways roll over (due to a change in geometry when turning the steering hard to lock with a heavily loaded bucket are going to be lucky to figure out what to do and do it successfully in time to keep 4 wheels on the ground or even 3 in many instances.
I've seen new catamaran "drivers" roll over due to centrifugal force on their high CG when tacking quickly or otherwise maneuvering sharply especially when they have been taught to head into the wind to take the pressure off the sails to avoid a turnover and the very act of more turning does them in. It can be like watching the Ripple Train Wreck in slow motion. Lots of time to think about it but if you don't recognize the situation and have to analyze it, well time flies when your having fun (or having to think.)
Subjective time (as accounted for by the person involved in the SITUATION) can be significantly distorted.
Oh, and regarding the aeronautical sourced information that evoked impassioned disbelievers... Get over it, like the laws of physics your opinion not withstanding the aero dude told it like it is. Like gravity, it just is and can't be changed.
PS I am a pilot (ex USAF) and I was an instructor on an instrument trainer (simulated a jet aircraft) for over 3 years and I can attest to what happens when you catch someone (rated pilots with plenty of hours) off guard with no immediately retrievable preplanned RIGHT ACTION at their disposal. They (in the best possible outcome) have to ANALYZE the situation before reacting. Luckily it only took my aircraft a few seconds to recover from becoming a smoking hole in the ground, pull it self back up to ground level and be ready to go again good as new. Not the case in the world of real A/C, tractors, etc.
Wanna see slow reactions... Watch someone with a cell phone shoved in their ear while driving and their phone contact asks something that requires serious conscious thought. They just "zone out" as far as driving is concerned and may wander across lanes or ... Similarly watch someone singing along with their iTunes while tractoring and some unanticipated fast reaction is required. First their brain has to "switch contexts" and then they have to handle the situation. Some folks are not good at it and it is like they are waking up in a new world.
Pat
The slower figure (5 sec) is not only appropriate for something complicated as a modern war bird or the space shuttle. It isn't the overall complexity of the machine that is the driving factor it is the complexity of the analysis.
Pre-decided actions like dumping the clutch when the Christmas tree goes green or shoving the FEL joystick to drop the bucket go very quickly. I try to always have my hand on the FEL joystick when the tractor is in motion with a load in the bucket and am ready to drop the load in an instant (way less than 5 sec.)
Newby operators not aware of that defensive operating posture and not expecting to tip over sideways on level ground at slow speeds when first confronted with an imminent sideways roll over (due to a change in geometry when turning the steering hard to lock with a heavily loaded bucket are going to be lucky to figure out what to do and do it successfully in time to keep 4 wheels on the ground or even 3 in many instances.
I've seen new catamaran "drivers" roll over due to centrifugal force on their high CG when tacking quickly or otherwise maneuvering sharply especially when they have been taught to head into the wind to take the pressure off the sails to avoid a turnover and the very act of more turning does them in. It can be like watching the Ripple Train Wreck in slow motion. Lots of time to think about it but if you don't recognize the situation and have to analyze it, well time flies when your having fun (or having to think.)
Subjective time (as accounted for by the person involved in the SITUATION) can be significantly distorted.
Oh, and regarding the aeronautical sourced information that evoked impassioned disbelievers... Get over it, like the laws of physics your opinion not withstanding the aero dude told it like it is. Like gravity, it just is and can't be changed.
PS I am a pilot (ex USAF) and I was an instructor on an instrument trainer (simulated a jet aircraft) for over 3 years and I can attest to what happens when you catch someone (rated pilots with plenty of hours) off guard with no immediately retrievable preplanned RIGHT ACTION at their disposal. They (in the best possible outcome) have to ANALYZE the situation before reacting. Luckily it only took my aircraft a few seconds to recover from becoming a smoking hole in the ground, pull it self back up to ground level and be ready to go again good as new. Not the case in the world of real A/C, tractors, etc.
Wanna see slow reactions... Watch someone with a cell phone shoved in their ear while driving and their phone contact asks something that requires serious conscious thought. They just "zone out" as far as driving is concerned and may wander across lanes or ... Similarly watch someone singing along with their iTunes while tractoring and some unanticipated fast reaction is required. First their brain has to "switch contexts" and then they have to handle the situation. Some folks are not good at it and it is like they are waking up in a new world.
Pat
doall
Platinum Member
sure nuff (could not agree more)...comparing athletics to operator reaction time is like comparing "apples to oranges"
that was the whole point.
patrick_g
Elite Member
/P
What is good for the goose should be good for the gander, RIGHT???
If 5 sec is so stupidly indefensible that you won't accept it as provided with terrific credentials on the part of the provider then please provide your (applicable) credentials and or quote your informed sources that back up your contention.
Patrick
texasjohn
Super Member
+1 for what Patrick_g said. I studied human factors once...I believe he's lived it.
I'm always amazed and impressed by the total scope and experience of TBN contributors.:thumbsup:
Any moment now somebody is going to give an actual account of what happens when attacked by wild mountain gorillas:laughing:
I'm always amazed and impressed by the total scope and experience of TBN contributors.:thumbsup:
Any moment now somebody is going to give an actual account of what happens when attacked by wild mountain gorillas:laughing:
doall
Platinum Member
Well they might not have been true Mountain gorilla's,but back in 89...:laughing::laughing::laughing:
texasjohn
Super Member
Well, doall, should I read something into your twice repeated series of three items : ... and :laughing::laughing::laughing: ?
I refer to the diary that Meryl Streep kept of her paramours/activities in Mamma Mia :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
I refer to the diary that Meryl Streep kept of her paramours/activities in Mamma Mia :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
k0ua
Epic Contributor
+1 on that, I KNOW that is a fact. because it has happened to me. It is not just simply talking on a cellphone, it is the content of the conversation. When talking to the wife, telling her your are on the way home, no problem, but when you get a business call, and someone ask me an engineering question about a system, and I have to think about it, I now, advise them I will call them back when I get to the office or tommorow, I know I cannot drive safely,and solve engineering problems over a stupid cell phone. and Handfree has no effect one way or another, And I bet a lot of other people have this same problem
James K0UA
patrick_g
Elite Member
Thanks. Vote early, vote often!
If a guy is fully qualified to write a Wikipedia article on a topic...
I'm always amazed by the total RANGE of scope and experience of TBN contributors.
Patrick
hawkeye08
Elite Member
Just a quick internet search brings a wealth of information. From one article, you can see in the summary that the time varies greatly, depending on the situation. (http://www.harristechnical.com/articles/human.pdf)
5 seconds seems like a good compromise for this discussion.
SUMMARY
So what's a reconstructionist supposed to use? Sadly, there's no definitive answer except that 1.75 sec (daytime) and 2.5 sec (nighttime) are probably good places to start. Dr. Robert Dewar, who has conducted research on human factors in traffic safety since 1971, sums it up best this way. "The proper 'reconstruction' of a traffic accident must take into account the various potential human factors that could have contributed to the accident. After all, driver error (and pedestrian error) becomes a contributing factor in the vast majority of traffic accidents."
Some studies indicate that at night, because of restricted vision and driver expectation, that the time to perceive, react and maneuver is considerably longer. In a video presentation prepared by the 3M Company, "The Beauty of Conspicuity," a section on Decision Sight Distance explains that the Federal Highway Administration (FHWA) commissioned Biotechnology to study the time/distance situation regarding nighttime rear-end accidents.
The study results show that a driver "with average reflexes, eyesight, decisiveness and sobriety, driving an average car" [at 60 miles an hour] will take almost three seconds to see and recognize a hazard, almost seven seconds to decide on a course of action, and almost four-point-five seconds to complete a maneuver."
This is not to say, the study goes on, that the rule to allow 100 feet of stopping distance for each 10 mph, is entirely invalid. But at night, when a tractor-semitrailer is blocking the road, motorists must identify the problem when they are one-quarter mile away. Therefore, in the 14.5 seconds necessary to see, perceive (recognize), decide what to do, and then do it, a vehicle will travel 1,276 feet. If the recognition begins a quarter mile away (1,320 ft), the motorist has a "cushion" of 44 feet.
5 seconds seems like a good compromise for this discussion.
SUMMARY
So what's a reconstructionist supposed to use? Sadly, there's no definitive answer except that 1.75 sec (daytime) and 2.5 sec (nighttime) are probably good places to start. Dr. Robert Dewar, who has conducted research on human factors in traffic safety since 1971, sums it up best this way. "The proper 'reconstruction' of a traffic accident must take into account the various potential human factors that could have contributed to the accident. After all, driver error (and pedestrian error) becomes a contributing factor in the vast majority of traffic accidents."
Some studies indicate that at night, because of restricted vision and driver expectation, that the time to perceive, react and maneuver is considerably longer. In a video presentation prepared by the 3M Company, "The Beauty of Conspicuity," a section on Decision Sight Distance explains that the Federal Highway Administration (FHWA) commissioned Biotechnology to study the time/distance situation regarding nighttime rear-end accidents.
The study results show that a driver "with average reflexes, eyesight, decisiveness and sobriety, driving an average car" [at 60 miles an hour] will take almost three seconds to see and recognize a hazard, almost seven seconds to decide on a course of action, and almost four-point-five seconds to complete a maneuver."
This is not to say, the study goes on, that the rule to allow 100 feet of stopping distance for each 10 mph, is entirely invalid. But at night, when a tractor-semitrailer is blocking the road, motorists must identify the problem when they are one-quarter mile away. Therefore, in the 14.5 seconds necessary to see, perceive (recognize), decide what to do, and then do it, a vehicle will travel 1,276 feet. If the recognition begins a quarter mile away (1,320 ft), the motorist has a "cushion" of 44 feet.
/pine
Super Star Member
- Joined
- Mar 4, 2009
- Messages
- 15,763
taken and accepted...
as for the rest...go back and read the linked data...and remember, credentials on the internet...well you know what they say...(if you don't)...search for "arguing on the Internet"
and IMO, unless someone wants to give up their anonymity and post their listing in "Who's Who"...see the above reference...I don't deem proving such in an Internet forum is worthy of the possible repercussions.
if you are not happy with differing opinions...especially without literal proof...again see the above reference to "arguing on the Internet"
Just curious...how many accepting the OP's figure have been able to substantiate it with their own research?...I myself have found several references that support my opinion but have been unable to find anything that supports the OP's...but that does not mean I am unwilling to accept it if supplied which is all I asked for in the first place...
doall
Platinum Member
never saw that movie. Don't know how I missed it.
patrick_g
Elite Member
James, Good reliable repeatable tests have been made which show conclusively it is NOT the act of holding a cell phone in your hand that is the chief detraction from safety, it is the conversation. Hands free cell phones and or vehicles with cell phone connectivity to the vehicles audio encourage people to use their cell phone while driving. It is patently unsafe.
It is not a personal failing of yours, James. It is the way that humans handle (or mishandle) multi-tasking. Like a drinker is the least qualified to tell if he has had too much to drink because he is the one whose judgement is messed up. Someone who is deluding himself about his multitasking is just not aware of reality. The person talking on the phone and driving at the same time suffers quite a loss in performance capability (as measured in many tests) but is typically unaware of it. The person on the phone THINKS they are keeping up with the conversation (and it legitimately seems to them to be the case) AND their driving too but in reality that is just not the case.
There is a perceptual problem inherent in the way we are wired that prevents our seeing our performance as it really is. Essentially there are two process running in our head in this situation (driving and talking)and when one needs more compute power it steals it from the other. The driver/talker THINKS they are dong both things just fine but one of the processes may be suspended in favor of the other such as when you are asked to actually think and not just mouth empty clich駸. For some periods of time the driving process gets no computer power when you have to actually think while on the phone. This is when you see folks wander across lanes etc.
This is applicable to singing along with iTunes while tractoring AND an emergency arises. (Or tractoring on the cell phone or ...
Patrick (N6AYR)
Not trying to respond to all the responses to all the..... nested n levels deep, etc., but;
Yes, distracted driving doesn't require the holding of a cell phone close to the ear.
Somewhere I picked up the number that only 7% of communication is verbal.
It is part of the reason that "face to face meetings" are felt to be so necessary, it is PART of the problem of managing people and their tasks in remote locations.
It is CLEARLY a part of the fact that many drivers turn to LOOK at the passenger beside them when in traffic - not only what are clearly shouting matches, but also for what appear to be normal conversations.
OK, it isn't just THEM, it is also ME (-:
I find it difficult to keep my eyes and attention on the road as much as I should when a passenger asks me a question that requires some thought.
Yes, I can and do multi-task, but conversation and driving are both real time activities and they compete for processing time - i.e. they are not done in the idle time of each other.
Hey, it isn't just THEM and ME, it is US (-:
To the original question;
I don't know WHAT the affordable and usable technology will be.
Ground penetrating radar, ultra-sound, something as yet unheard of, etc.
My suspicion is that it will be incredibly expensive for quite a while and will probably never reach the economy of scale that is typical of the auto industry.
I do know that I can recognize upcoming deep black soft muck as very likely by what I see growing there and the general topology, e.g. it is lower ground that receives drainage.
The information base is derived from experience, or, "bin stuck in places like that before".
I have not (yet) rolled a tractor and of course I hope I never do, so I have no experience base to draw on.
I do TRY to stay well within what I perceive to be safe limits and this is where most of the problem lays.
MY perception of limits (risk, danger, etc.) in some situations may well keep me from doing something efficiently, or even at all.
In some circumstances it might cause me to BECOME just another accident statistic.
My point is that my experience "at the edge" is very limited, I am working only with my senses and the translation to pucker factor.
How many "almost lost it there" experiences do most of us get before the BIG "Ooops, its all over now" ?
We don't get to practice this stuff on (the functional equivalent of) flight simulators.
Hmm; Nope, not going to go into the business of trying to build and sell tractor sims (-:
I think there is a very strong case for what the original poster suggested and it might well happen on the multi-hundred thousand dollar equipment, but at the Cat 1 and 2
tractor level or skid steer ?
I doubt it will see the light of day in my lifetime.
BTW, I think auto piloted cars have been "within 20 years" since the early '50s
Yes, distracted driving doesn't require the holding of a cell phone close to the ear.
Somewhere I picked up the number that only 7% of communication is verbal.
It is part of the reason that "face to face meetings" are felt to be so necessary, it is PART of the problem of managing people and their tasks in remote locations.
It is CLEARLY a part of the fact that many drivers turn to LOOK at the passenger beside them when in traffic - not only what are clearly shouting matches, but also for what appear to be normal conversations.
OK, it isn't just THEM, it is also ME (-:
I find it difficult to keep my eyes and attention on the road as much as I should when a passenger asks me a question that requires some thought.
Yes, I can and do multi-task, but conversation and driving are both real time activities and they compete for processing time - i.e. they are not done in the idle time of each other.
Hey, it isn't just THEM and ME, it is US (-:
To the original question;
I don't know WHAT the affordable and usable technology will be.
Ground penetrating radar, ultra-sound, something as yet unheard of, etc.
My suspicion is that it will be incredibly expensive for quite a while and will probably never reach the economy of scale that is typical of the auto industry.
I do know that I can recognize upcoming deep black soft muck as very likely by what I see growing there and the general topology, e.g. it is lower ground that receives drainage.
The information base is derived from experience, or, "bin stuck in places like that before".
I have not (yet) rolled a tractor and of course I hope I never do, so I have no experience base to draw on.
I do TRY to stay well within what I perceive to be safe limits and this is where most of the problem lays.
MY perception of limits (risk, danger, etc.) in some situations may well keep me from doing something efficiently, or even at all.
In some circumstances it might cause me to BECOME just another accident statistic.
My point is that my experience "at the edge" is very limited, I am working only with my senses and the translation to pucker factor.
How many "almost lost it there" experiences do most of us get before the BIG "Ooops, its all over now" ?
We don't get to practice this stuff on (the functional equivalent of) flight simulators.
Hmm; Nope, not going to go into the business of trying to build and sell tractor sims (-:
I think there is a very strong case for what the original poster suggested and it might well happen on the multi-hundred thousand dollar equipment, but at the Cat 1 and 2
tractor level or skid steer ?
I doubt it will see the light of day in my lifetime.
BTW, I think auto piloted cars have been "within 20 years" since the early '50s
patrick_g
Elite Member
Reg, electronic tape measures using ultrasound or laser diodes have been around for a while. a simple system with a little time averaging could be made to drop the bucket if the tractor tilted too far, i.e. difference in height at the 4 corners was too great or was growing too fast (what is too far would be programmable) Microwave (Radar) would be a good choice to "see through the weeds to dirt."
Of course you'd probably want to shift to neutral or kill the engine as dropping the the bucket all the way to the ground might get "interesting" at speed.
Cat has autonomous "MONSTER" vehicles used in open pit mining, sans on board operators so the technology is out there but would need to be "pared down" to an affordable and reasonable scale for private individuals.
Given the availability of tilt meters and the extremely limited use of them, I think it is safe to say there is not a lot of interest in this arena. We talk about it here but how many folks have a tilt meter? I don't.
Patrick
Of course you'd probably want to shift to neutral or kill the engine as dropping the the bucket all the way to the ground might get "interesting" at speed.
Cat has autonomous "MONSTER" vehicles used in open pit mining, sans on board operators so the technology is out there but would need to be "pared down" to an affordable and reasonable scale for private individuals.
Given the availability of tilt meters and the extremely limited use of them, I think it is safe to say there is not a lot of interest in this arena. We talk about it here but how many folks have a tilt meter? I don't.
Patrick
Egon
Epic Contributor
All of us have a built in tilt meter somewhere between the ears!::thumbsup:
But, as I have been told, it doesn't work well in dense fog!
SpringHollow
Elite Member
i have two tilt meters (right angles to each other) not for safety because my tractor can bush hog sideways on a 45 degree slope but more for curiosity. I am surprised how often a slope looks and feels steeper than it really is. I will be on a 20 degree slope and be swearing it is over 30 degrees. I routinely do raised bucket work on 20 - 25 degree slopes with this tractor. With my CUTs, i was routinely raising a wheel on what seemed to be almost flat for around here, maybe 5 degree slopes.
I actually think i am a safer driver when talking hands free on a cell phone while driving. I know the risks so i actually focus on my driving more than if i was not talking. It is the conversation that suffers for me, not the driving. Frequently, i have to ask people to repeat themselves because driving is taking my main focus.
Ken
I actually think i am a safer driver when talking hands free on a cell phone while driving. I know the risks so i actually focus on my driving more than if i was not talking. It is the conversation that suffers for me, not the driving. Frequently, i have to ask people to repeat themselves because driving is taking my main focus.
Ken
patrick_g
Elite Member
...and there are folks who think they are better drivers after a beer or two because they are trying harder to overcome their alcohol induced handicap.
(Cheech and Chong and the "its only an ambulance" skit.)
I know a guy who thinks he is a better flyer after a couple drinks as it calms him down and "smooths" him out. One day he may recognize his error but no amount of "reasoning" with him does any good so far.
I'm putting my money on anything that detracts from your attention as being less safe. Of course that is just me, others may get different mileage.
Patrick
(Cheech and Chong and the "its only an ambulance" skit.)
I know a guy who thinks he is a better flyer after a couple drinks as it calms him down and "smooths" him out. One day he may recognize his error but no amount of "reasoning" with him does any good so far.
I'm putting my money on anything that detracts from your attention as being less safe. Of course that is just me, others may get different mileage.
Patrick
OP
nebraskasparks
Gold Member
- Joined
- Jun 4, 2010
- Messages
- 271
- Location
- Northern Illiniois
- Tractor
- 2010 Kubota L5740 HST and JD X734
Enjoyed everyone's input....dropping an apple can be done instantaneously...peeling an orange...takes 5 seconds:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:
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