question about wheel spacers to increase width of tractor

   / question about wheel spacers to increase width of tractor #41  
Harry,

I love sea stories like the one about the dual wheel combine's bearing failure. I note you have a Kubota that is about 5% heavier (but 20% more HP) than my Kioti. I looked at the bearing diagram you provided - the vertical load and the cornering load vectors. In another thread a happy customer of Motorsport-Tech.com, which machines custom spacers from blocks of high grade aluminum and has been doing so for 20 years, has a back and forth with some forumites in which the Motorsport-Tech rep states that the way his spacers attach does not unduly stress the wheel bearings. I jumped in that thread and publicly scratched my head because I'm trying to understand not only the physics of installing spacers - and associated risk of catastrophic premature failure and what that might mean on a hillside - but also whether a 3 or 4 inch spacer on each rear wheel even with premature wear/failure is such an enhancement to hillside bush hogging safety that it is a wise tradeoff. So I asked for further explanation in that thread and hopefully we'll hear more. I googled SKF, the swedish bearing manufacturer, and I see there is a calculator, but I am not an engineer and my cursory glance told me trying to calculate an outcome, and make sense of whatever that yielded in terms of risk/life of the bearing, is above my head. Are you interested enough to try and run some numbers for my (our) tractors *grin*? With FEL and bush hog and loaded rear tires I think my tractor is about 6,000 pounds.

I'm finding this subject pretty interesting!

Best,

Rhino

There are just so many unknowns, like what bearings are currently used, what is the spread, what are the static loads and what are the dynamic loads. Early in my career I was working on hillside combines. Our prototype failed a steering brake. We analyzed the failure, redesigned, and then had to test the new design before the machine went into production - but the harvest was over so how to test? We developed a test plan with severe figure 8 turns with extreme turning brake usage. New brake worked fine but we started popping bearings on the steering wheels. The side loading on the tires was so high when the steering brakes were used hard that it actually bent the spindles between the bearings so the bearings quickly failed. That loading was side loading equivalent to driving on a steep slope. So spacers for stability due to slopes - slope, tire loaded radius also enter in. It gets complex.

My opinion is to get your spacers and keep an eye out for oil leakage, wheel starting to tilt. There are things I swear would never work. I saw a Farmall Super A at an auction where the owner had built (very stout) a front end loader and installed duals front and rear. I absolutely know this won't work yet the owner used it for clearing snow for many years. Talk about front wheel bearing overload with a loader on a Super A plus duals on the front. International never put a loader of any kind on an A.
 
   / question about wheel spacers to increase width of tractor #42  
Harry,

Another good sea story. Maybe he greased the heck out of his dual wheel modification bearings and watched the loads on his FEL?

I am asking for advice. I appreciate your opinion that I could get the spacers and watch for signs of wear or imminent failure. I think the imperative is stability and I'll just budget for bearing replacement in, say, 20 years instead of 40 *grin*. When I replace them I will report back to the forum!
 
   / question about wheel spacers to increase width of tractor #43  
Harry,

Another good sea story. Maybe he greased the heck out of his dual wheel modification bearings and watched the loads on his FEL?

I am asking for advice. I appreciate your opinion that I could get the spacers and watch for signs of wear or imminent failure. I think the imperative is stability and I'll just budget for bearing replacement in, say, 20 years instead of 40 *grin*. When I replace them I will report back to the forum!

LOL I will hold you to that if I can still read in 20 - 40 years. By the way I had to make a very fast 320 mile trip to the dealer for parts today and in Northern Wisconsin I saw a Farmall B (is that an A with a narrow front) with the rear wheels spaced out like taking up the whole lane width. He had a home built front blade. I passed him on the highway when I was heading east and saw him blading a driveway when I returned an hour later. A Farmall B is like 1950 vintage so over 60 years. Wonder if he had the rears spaced out wide all the time. Would have liked to have stopped and talked to the guy but this was an emergency main machine down trip so I had to speed back.
 
   / question about wheel spacers to increase width of tractor #44  
I flipped the front rims outward on my Ford a few months ago.
Then finally flipped the rears to their widest position.

I haven't noticed any steering changes.

Oops.jpg

This was before setting the wheels wider.

Undoubtedly fronts had hit the stops. If you look closely at the photo, the right wheel had too little pressure and flattened.

Anyway, the wider stance sure seems to help, especially when carrying equipment such as my drum mower.

I don't have axle spacers, but just the setting the wheels out by about 6" on each side does seem to have a dramatic impact. I don't know if I want them any wider, but I'll know as I do some mowing shortly.
 
   / question about wheel spacers to increase width of tractor #45  
VTS,

Really good article on tractor safety - thank you. One thing I got out of it - and please correct me if I'm wrong - it that if the rear wheels won't move - frozen, stuck in mud - then the tractor will rotate backwards over itself. I had conceptualized that if the tractor gotten held back - say a bush hog lip caught on a stump - the the tractor would go backwards very fast - but not these two scenarios. And I have to ask...if I have the parking brake firmly set, which affect only the rear wheels, as I am instructed to alway have set in the manual when starting or dismounting, could forgetting to release the brake and trying to move forward also pivot the tractor body up and over? Anyone almost do this with the parking brake?

And it does illustrate nicely how wider front wheels expand the envelope for Center of Gravity. While the pivoting front axle does allow the tractor body to move the CG sideways, when it hits the stop the wider track will still assist the tractor's stability.

I'm new to tractors so I don't know exactly where all the various zerts back by the PTO lead to. There are two zerts, one each, on an outer area of the front axels. How do you grease the front and rear wheel bearings? I didn't see anything specific in the manual, but if I can squirt some grease in there from time to time?

Thanks for joining in the discussion.

Rhino
For the parking break question I doubt it but it might depend on the parking brake design. Mine only has a park gear so you can't apply power to the wheels with it in park and other brakes most probably apply force evenly around the rim so don't provide a point of rotation. Frozen into mud or ice is very real though, especially when you have chains on so winter start ups need to be done cautiously. As to the grease zerk locations it varies by tractor and bearings may be lubed by the gear oil in the axle on the inner bearing side or simply be sealed bearings with no provision for operator greasing. The owner's manual for your specific tractor is your best resource.
 
   / question about wheel spacers to increase width of tractor #46  
If the axle doesn't turn (brakes, frozen bearing, etc), then your tractor is not going to flip over backwards.

Apparently the dangerous thing is when one does something like tying fence posts to the tires to get additional traction. In this case, attempting to go forward could cause excessive torque and could raise the front end. Going backwards, and it tends to push the front end down.

There was an article that I saw somewhere about safely towing. Anyway, one should attach the load below the "pivot point" (rear axle), and it is unlikely to flip backwards, as essentially the load is pulling the front end downward. Pull from above the pivot point (such as using the top-link of the 3pt hitch to tow with, and it could lift the front wheels.

If you managed to flip back upon a device such as a a brush hot, it would give some additional protection.
 
   / question about wheel spacers to increase width of tractor #47  
Clifford,

I think you're exactly right. I read that the brake might cause a roll back and over so I mentioned it, but I see that IF the brake held the tire from moving it couldn't cause a rollover. Thanks!

Rhino
 
   / question about wheel spacers to increase width of tractor #48  
Harry,

This reply is to you but it is really to all who have responded, or maybe read this thread with interest (and certainly to the original poster). Thanks to everyone's replies, and a little googling, and considering the intended usage of my tractor, and pondering the nerve-wracking job I just did bush hogging my 7 acre steep hill (my first time on a tractor), and talking to a confidence-inspiring manufacturer of spacers (the gist - no complaints, no spacer failures over 20 plus years), I have decided to space all four wheels on my new Kioti DKSE 40 hydrostatic tractor. I'm going to buy 4 inch spacers all around and preserve the geometry of the factory wheels - and go for maximum stability. I thought it might be helpful to other tractor owners to recap why I decided to go with spacers.

One salient thing about my new tractor and its anticipated use is low utilization. The front end loader can lift 2,740 pounds, but I can easily limit the load to half that or less when I occasionally have use for it. I'm mostly going to bush hog my own 8 hilly acres about four, maybe five times a year and do light landscaping work once in a while. So hopefully whatever asymmetric stresses I might be putting on the axle and/or wheel bearings with spacers which might lead to premature wear or failure, compared to the Kioti vertically designed stresses which are supposed to load the outside and the inside of the bearings equally, will never rise to the wear level of a tractor designed to be used frequently - or in commercial applications. Harry, your explanation about wheel bearings was much appreciated, and since you didn't mention concerns about axles with spacers (except for indirectly with the sea story about the modified dual axle failure of the combine) I am assuming whatever affect spacers might have on axles is relatively minor. A few posters think the axles, particularly the front axles which turn and experience side loads, and particularly front axles with front end loaders, are stressed with spacers, but as a residential user I can keep FEL loads reasonable.

So the reality is that the bearings for both front and rear wheels are additionally stressed by wheel spacers, but the question is how much and will it actually result in premature wear and/or failure? You pointed out that bearings are designed for both a vertical design load of the tractor's weight and side loads from slopes and turning. There is some ideal perfectly vertical load right down into the center of the bearing, and some design strength for what side loads will do in terms of distributing the load to the inside and outside areas of the bearing for slopes and during turning. For all our tractors, the engineers must have thought about a range of inside and outside wheel bearing load tolerances because the tractor wheels can be constructed and mounted within operator manual settings that change the wheel/tire width a number of ways within about ten inches. With my rear wheels alreadly constructed for maximum width, adding spacers is going to reallocate the load on the bearings from more or less a vertical loading within this design tolerance range to a permanent (as long as the spacers are installed) asymmetric load. Which may or may not be inside where the Kioti engineers concluded bearing wear is acceptable! But additional asymmetric bearing loads will be applied by my constantly driving the tractor uneven terrain, sometimes across side hills - and those bearing loads to my layman's mind would seem to be more than any spacer on level ground would reallocate on the bearings. So in the real world there will be additive loads - and, importantly, canceling loads - applied to my bearings as the tractor moves. I'm going to proceed on the thought that we're probably talking about a cumulative additive/subtractive bearing/axle wear effect on both front and rear wheel bearings, again given my planned underutilization of a workhorse tractor, which will not manifest itself for decades. I'll be watching for leaks and investigating any suspicious signs of premature failure.

One poster made a point that is an important one. He said he can't see all the bolts once the spacers are installed so he locktites them. I've been cautioned that tractor wheel bolts can loosen with use and they need to be checked often. The company I'm considering buying the spacers from does provide locking washers. This is something I'll have to keep in mind.

Lastly, what about corrosion? Should the spacers be painted or left alone? What is the cost of anodizing - and does that prevent corrosion? The answer I got from the manufacturer is that the high grade aluminum blocks they begin with to shape their spacers don't corrode appreciably. One poster spray painted his spacers a matching gray color. Anodizing doesn't cost much - just a few dollars per spacer - and is a dipping process that doesn't affect bored tolerances. This from Wikipedia on anodizing, "The process is called "anodizing" because the part to be treated forms the anode electrode of an electrical circuit. Anodizing increases corrosion resistance and wear resistance, and provides better adhesion for paint primers and glues than does bare metal." So anodizing will be something I'll pay for when I order the spacers next week - probably black for low glare off the spacers - and ease of seeing any deep scratches from my clumsy driving *grin*.

On the downside if I install these I may void all, or more likely part, of my new tractor warranty. It would only be fair that if I do mess up the axles or bearings I pay for the repair, not Kioti.

As many of you have long concluded, enhancing the stability of these tractors on hillsides is worth the risk of premature wheel bearing wear, which seems to be the most valid concern. With my hills, my inexperience, and my wife wanting to bush hog...spacers it is! Thanks again to all who commented.

Would anyone like me to upload before and after photos? It will be a few weeks, maybe even a couple of months, before I have the spacers in hand and installed.

Best,

Rhino
 
   / question about wheel spacers to increase width of tractor #49  
   / question about wheel spacers to increase width of tractor #50  
CliffordK,

That was an interesting thread. I'm wondering if the problem he experienced was due to the larger wheels and not spacers? Just hold your hands in front of you...turn your hands like the wheels would turn...the wheels don't hit the FEL arms right now. Move your hands outward as if just spacers were installed. Turn your hands the same way. Do the back part of the wheels appear to be closer to the tractor frame? Or further? I think further. Seems like with JUST spacers it wouldn't be a problem - the rear part of the same size wheels would be further from the tractor. But I can see with larger wheels it could be a problem.

I appreciate the heads up and I'll go look closely at the tractor and see if I can imagine a wheel rub situation.

Here's another possible problem - brainstorming like this is great! I measured the current width of the rear tires from outside the tire to outside the tire. It is 75 inches. Adding four inches a side will take the width to 83 inches. Am I going to have difficulty driving the tractor onto a trailer? I checked out the legal maximum width of flatbed trailers - looks like it is a federal limit of 102 inches, which is 8.5 feet. But a quick check of retail trailers...a lot of them are 80 inches wide or less.

I don't have a trailer or a truck capable of towing the weight of the trailer plus the weight of my tractor (about 6,300 pounds with bush hog, FEL and RimGuard rear tires) - something like a 10,000 or 12,000 certified trailer so I'll be paying someone locally to take my tractor to the dealer (only 5 miles away - yippee!). I guess before I decide on the width of the spacers I should check with the dealer's towing guy about the width of his trailer!

Keep brainstorming! Heading off problems is way cheaper than dealing with them later.

Rhino
 
 
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