Ethanol on the Ropes?

Gale Hawkins · Nov 22, 2010

U.S. corn ethanol was not a good policy-Gore | Energy & Oil | Reuters

I still am not sure what I read was actually said by the man. :thumbsup:

mmurphy · Nov 22, 2010

Like a true politician. Take a stand with wiggle room.

Gale Hawkins · Nov 22, 2010

The fact he said he voted for it to buy votes makes me wonder about his health. With Bush sucking up so much oxgyen why Obama was out of the country maybe Gore is just trying to get a little air time.

mmurphy · Nov 22, 2010

Gale Hawkins said:
The fact he said he voted for it to buy votes makes me wonder about his health. With Bush sucking up so much oxgyen why Obama was out of the country maybe Gore is just trying to get a little air time.

LOL! Something like, I voted for it once before I was against it?

Gale Hawkins · Nov 22, 2010

America Gets Gored - Investors.com

This is a source I better trust.

I never knew the mandated use of ethanol was a solo decision by Gore for the entire country.

crazyal · Nov 22, 2010

Unfortunately the mandate is not up for renewal this December. My guess is the GOP will shoot down giving farmers and ethanol refineries money.

Gale Hawkins · Nov 22, 2010

Report: Flexible ethanol policy could stabilize food prices | BrighterEnergy.org

This is actually a common sense report from U of IA on ethanol usage to manage corn prices.:thumbsup:

Ken45101 · Nov 23, 2010

Gale Hawkins said:
This is actually a common sense report from U of IA on ethanol usage to manage corn prices.:thumbsup:

"To manage corn prices"????? That's the problem, we have these insane "environmental " "solutions" to provide economic manipulation of farm markets

It's nothing but an expensive scam that's raping the country.

I'm afraid that Gore's admission just indicates that he has found a new way to lie and enrich himself.

As to the thread title, I expect that there are too many powerful interests in the corn/ethanol boondoggle for it to be "on the ropes".

LostInTheWoods · Nov 23, 2010

Gale Hawkins said:
I still am not sure what I read was actually said by the man. :thumbsup:

Former U.S. vice-president Al Gore said support for corn-based ethanol in the United States was "not a good policy".

"First generation ethanol I think was a mistake. The energy conversion ratios are at best very small".

"One of the reasons I made that mistake is that I paid particular attention to the farmers in my home state of Tennessee, and I had a certain fondness for the farmers in the state of Iowa because I was about to run for president.

A very interesting subject, but one that would be difficult to delve into without crossing into politics. If the OP wants to continue the thread, my guess is it will probably have to move to the Front Porch.

Gale Hawkins · Nov 23, 2010

I do understand the second generation using non food crops would be a better route but now that we know there is enough oil/gas for the next 100 years these hard times may slow down second generation ethanol development.

I thought it was interesting how Henry Ford built his first generation of vehicles to run on ethanol. Sounds like flex fuels is nothing new.

LostInTheWoods · Nov 23, 2010

Gale Hawkins said:
I do understand the second generation using non food crops would be a better route but now that we know there is enough oil/gas for the next 100 years these hard times may slow down second generation ethanol development.

I thought it was interesting how Henry Ford built his first generation of vehicles to run on ethanol. Sounds like flex fuels is nothing new.

Of course, when Henry Ford first started churning out vehicles, there weren't a lot of them around. Great amounts of ethanol weren't required. The amount we require today to make a significant impact is a number of degrees greater. And therein lies a problem with ethanol (even second generation ethanol) as a fuel source. How can we possibly grow and transport enough biomass in an economically feasible manner to meet current needs?

As far as the numbers I have seen, even second generation ethanol production requires more energy to produce than it can deliver. With more research, maybe we will see a net gain. But we're not there, yet.

Gale Hawkins · Nov 23, 2010

Also a 100 years ago alcohol was being produced out in the shed in that big copper thing.

Cheap energy was our ticket to sucess but that ticket has expired.

Ken45101 · Nov 23, 2010

Gale Hawkins said:
I do understand the second generation using non food crops would be a better route but now that we know there is enough oil/gas for the next 100 years these hard times may slow down second generation ethanol development.

Ethanol has nothing to do with oil/gas availability. It's all about pork barrel politics, dishonest government, vote buying, corruption, kickbacks, etc. If anyone really looked at the real data, it was apparent from the beginning that corn ethanol did NOT reduce the use of fossil fuels. It always has been apparent that corn/ethanol used as much fossil fuel as it "saved", plus it is a less efficient auto fuel, reducing auto mpg.

If it were truly an energy issue, we would have allowed importation of ethanol made from sugar cane, a lot more sensible approach. But that would not buy votes in the corn belt, nor make certain people rich with government subsidies.

I thought it was interesting how Henry Ford built his first generation of vehicles to run on ethanol. Sounds like flex fuels is nothing new.

That just goes to show that there are better fuels than alcohol.

In the meanwhile, it jacked up food prices around the world.

forgeblast · Nov 23, 2010

My Grandma had a still on the woodstove all winter long, she said she made more running shine then milk during the depression.

Gator6x4 · Nov 23, 2010

Ken45101 said:
Ethanol has nothing to do with oil/gas availability. It's all about pork barrel politics, dishonest government, vote buying, corruption, kickbacks, etc. If anyone really looked at the real data, it was apparent from the beginning that corn ethanol did NOT reduce the use of fossil fuels. It always has been apparent that corn/ethanol used as much fossil fuel as it "saved", plus it is a less efficient auto fuel, reducing auto mpg.

If it were truly an energy issue, we would have allowed importation of ethanol made from sugar cane, a lot more sensible approach. But that would not buy votes in the corn belt, nor make certain people rich with government subsidies.

That just goes to show that there are better fuels than alcohol.

In the meanwhile, it jacked up food prices around the world.

Well said. If anyone want to see where there tax dollars are going for Farm subsidies visist this web site, EWG Farm Subsidy Database click on your state and see who is receiving millions of your tax dollars and laughing all the way to the bank. Cotton and wheat receive more money than corn. Sugar Cane does not produce subsidy payments like corn, cotton, wheat, milk, etc.

mmurphy · Nov 23, 2010

I have defended ethanol, and still do. The fact that ethanol is subsidized, took it off the farmers being paid to leave ground set idle. Ethanol has paid back greatly to the economics for many, including farmers, factories and so on. Most people say it is raising the price of food. Ha Ha!! I would bet if all the ethanol plants shut down right now, in the next 2 to 3 years the price will keep inflating.

When the price of corn drops afterwards, farm ground will go idle again and farmers will need more help, and so would the jobless of many who rely on the jobs. The jobs that come with this is not just people working at ethanol plants, and or farms.

I hope Willy Nelson gets his rolled cig out for another farm relief aid!!!! I am reminded we still have subsidies for oil companies to. How I know? GOP was bragging about it last election and they said it was good for the country. Maybe they are right. Ethanol is good for the country also.

Gale Hawkins · Nov 23, 2010

mmurphy it would be interesting to see how the $6 billion tax dollars pumped into ethanol stimulus is recovered in lower set aside acreage payment, additional local, state, fed taxes paid by those jobs created by the industry.

It is the technical aspects for fuel that is my biggest issue because I have a few pre 1994 gas hogs.

crazyal · Nov 23, 2010

I would be much happier if the mandate for Ethanol was repealed. I think it would make better use of our money to help get E85 pumps all across the country. Let people choose what works for them.

Mace Canute · Nov 23, 2010

It's very interesting to see the subsidies the US government pays out to farmers, especially when they complain so loudly about so called Canadian subsidies. Is that a case of "Do as I say and not do as I do"?

Hoosier Hay Man · Nov 24, 2010

All energy is subsidized. Nuclear, Wind, Solar, Bio and yes Oil. It takes a mighty big Navy to keep those middle east shipping lanes open. Without a doubt oil is the most subsidized energy on the planet. Until we find the perfect energy I guess this debate will go on forever.