Western versus Eastern technology competition

This discussion started hijacking http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/build-yourself/275598-tractor-backhoe-homemade.html around post #490. Since it could get some legs I started new thread. Please include something about tractors once a while.:laughing:

nice, where do we start ?

Does anyone know if the tractors from Minsk Tractor Works (MTZ) were a copy of a Western design, and if so, which one ? Its a rumor i've heard but i could never find any similarities with others... Their hydraulics were as leaky as a basket though, the later ones had Italian hydraulics and powersteering which was a great improvement...

Minsk Tractor Works - The history of technology

When I was in military we had to attend political seminars (brainwashing). The commies had world domination plan. We were told once we "liberate" Italy and France everything will change. What the change was we were not told. It was clear to us that if the USSR thought that they could win they would roll tanks in Western Europe. It occurred to us that we would be in the first wave and ended most likely dead. So there was not much appetite for victorious march west on our part. We also watched Austrian and German TV. It was clear to us that commies turned prosperous country into third world country on level of Africa. In about 1966 first western turists started showing up. They had those luxury air-conditioned buses and looked at us while passing through the town and I wondered what they were thinking. It felt like on a Safari tour. We were the animals. There was a hotel in my hometown just for foreigners and good looking girls. Because of exchange rate from Austrian Shillings or Deutschmarks made their visit so cheap I heard stories abound people getting unemployment checks and living in 5 stars hotel and banging the best looking babes in town because it was cheaper than pay apartment rent in Austria or Germany.
Speaking about technology for whatever was military oriented money was not an object. But most of the stuff we had was quite primitive anyway. I had a friend who was aircraft mechanic on an air force base. (He got fired 1968 because his daughter didn't return from her visit to Austria.) He said that only electronics in the MIG 21 was radio and radar. All with vacuum tubes because they work in high radiation. The rest were relays and hydraulics. The pilot was lost without ground support. He told me there were several cases that the MIG pilot landed on US controlled airport in Germany at night thinking they were landing on home airport. They were guided there by Czech speaking traffic controller.
We understood that Russians were victim of the system like we were but we still hated everything Russian. There were many jokes about that.
Here is one:
Q. What would happen if fleas would shine like lighting bugs?
A: Moscow would look like Las Vegas.

I guess that is enough for the intro.

Redneck in training said:

Speaking about technology for whatever was military oriented money was not an object. But most of the stuff we had was quite primitive anyway. I had a friend who was aircraft mechanic on an air force base. (He got fired 1968 because his daughter didn't return from her visit to Austria.) He said that only electronics in the MIG 21 was radio and radar. All with vacuum tubes because they work in high radiation. The rest were relays and hydraulics.

Click to expand...

Yes, but that didnt make it less reliable. The ancient Russian spacecraft is now the backbone of worldwide spaceflight after the spaceshuttle is discontinued... The Dutch astronaut that went with it two years ago said to the question if he was worried about traveling with ancient Soviet tech: "Russians never throw something away, they improve on the basic concept and add to it. There are multiple redundancies in it: If the software flight computer fails, you use the hardware circuit board. If that fails you manually flip the switches..."

Redneck in training said:

We understood that Russians were victim of the system like we were but we still hated everything Russian. There were many jokes about that.

Click to expand...

You were born in Czechia ? Our company had a subcontractor in Slovakia, and speaking with them, i felt the same attitude towards anything Russian... Lets be honest, Czechoslovakia was allways a more free country than the rest of the eastern block, even so that the Russians "restored order" in 1968.... Also technologically they were more up to par with the West than other eastern countries, in the 80s it was all Zetor tractors and Tatra dumptrucks here at earthmoving and agricultural
contractors...

Redneck in training said:

There were many jokes about that.

Click to expand...

Ronald Reagan liked to tell them too...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEgRit8dxDY
President REAGAN telling SOVIET UNION jokes !!! - YouTube

Renze said:

nice, where do we start ?

Does anyone know if the tractors from Minsk Tractor Works (MTZ) were a copy of a Western design, and if so, which one ? Its a rumor i've heard but i could never find any similarities with others... Their hydraulics were as leaky as a basket though, the later ones had Italian hydraulics and powersteering which was a great improvement...

Click to expand...

I would guess that after the second revolution the stuff made in former Eastern block improved significantly.
I also knew that many things were simple copies of western designs. There was a car called Moskvich it was a copy of Opel Olympia. Some early engines still had Opel somewhat visible on the casting. Volga was a copy of Vauxhall.

Minsk is in Belarus. Belarus declared independence after WW1 but was annexed by Red army invasion to USSR. I might be mistaken but there was not much love between Belarus people and Russians. Belarus had rather western than eastern ambitions.

Ladia,

What is the current state of higher education in Eastern Europe?

Prior to ******'s rise and the aftermath of WWII, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Russia, Hungary, etc. were the source of many great scientists and engineers. And they had world-class universities. Some of the greatest Old World centers of learning where in those nations. Are they rebuilding?

Renze said:

Yes, but that didnt make it less reliable. The ancient Russian spacecraft is now the backbone of worldwide spaceflight after the spaceshuttle is discontinued... The Dutch astronaut that went with it two years ago said to the question if he was worried about traveling with ancient Soviet tech: "Russians never throw something away, they improve on the basic concept and add to it. There are multiple redundancies in it: If the software flight computer fails, you use the hardware circuit board. If that fails you manually flip the switches..."


You were born in Czechia ? Our company had a subcontractor in Slovakia, and speaking with them, i felt the same attitude towards anything Russian... Lets be honest, Czechoslovakia was allways a more free country than the rest of the eastern block, even so that the Russians "restored order" in 1968.... Also technologically they were more up to par with the West than other eastern countries, in the 80s it was all Zetor tractors and Tatra dumptrucks here at earthmoving and agricultural
contractors...


Ronald Reagan liked to tell them too...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEgRit8dxDY
President REAGAN telling SOVIET UNION jokes !!! - YouTube

Click to expand...

Yes, I was born in Czechoslovakia. I was first running away 1968 but was caught on the border and sent back. Then I couldn't leave the country, except to eastern bloc countries, for about 18 years. I got permission to go to Yugoslavia for vacation in 1985. I never made it to the resort. I crossed border to Italy in Nova Gorica at first chance and ended up in USA year later. The funny part is that I lived about 35 km from Austrian border (In Ceske Budejovice) but visited Austria first time in my life with US passport 1991.
There was certain pride in stuff made in CZ but also lot of resignation. On one hand we tried to do the best and on other sabotage everything to make the regime collapse. It was like schizophrenia. On one hand we used to fix in example pressure transmitters to component level (due to lack of spare parts) and on other hand we worked as little as possible. When the air force at local military base got new MIG 29 I stopped working at all. It P>>>d me off. I told myself I am fixing stuff by buying resistors and transistors for my own money and the commies buy airplanes for 100 million each. Nobody wants them and everyone is afraid of them. I left the country year later. One day before I left I told a colleague of mine: See, I am on strike already one year and nobody noticed. The level of mismanagement was colossal.

My FIL went into Yemen for oilfield work soon after the Ruskies left and he says he's never seen so much junk as to what they used for oilfield equipment.

Later on that same trip, he was car-jacked by some kalishnikov toting muslims. They wanted his Ford company truck. He said he got out and walked away, all the while staring at the ground. By the grace of God, they let him live.

I am currently working in Venezuela. It is like deja vu. I feel like returning back to Czechoslovakia in 1985.

Yes, but that didnt make it less reliable. The ancient Russian spacecraft is now the backbone of worldwide spaceflight after the spaceshuttle is discontinued... The Dutch astronaut that went with it two years ago said to the question if he was worried about traveling with ancient Soviet tech: "Russians never throw something away, they improve on the basic concept and add to it. There are multiple redundancies in it: If the software flight computer fails, you use the hardware circuit board. If that fails you manually flip the switches..."

That is true to some degree. Simplicity has certain beauty. But simple technology has its limits. There is no simple solution to complex problems.