New to tractors, could use some help!

[michael.white]

Blurry,

Search craigslist for a used tractor that meets your needs and price range. It was easier for me to find tractors in my price & capability range then search on the tractors on tractordata.com than to start searching for brands and models hoping to find one for sale. If you haven't heard of the manufacturer search on that too.

[Singalo]

I will try to explain the LS LINK to you. Since you are new to TBN it looks like you haven't explored the whole site. If you start with the forum page and scroll down, waaaay down, you will come to "the other brand" forums of the not so well known and near the bottom of the tractor lists you will find the LS forum where happy owners post their comments and buying experiences..

Garry, I appreciate your input. But you are misunderstanding me as well.

When I said this makes no sense, I meant LITERALLY, the sentence the other guy typed out made no sense. And then he went on to say that I am not willing to "Educate" myself.

Trust me, I understood his meaning regardless of the poor grammar. I am not the Grammar police and while banging out comments, I don't often bother to make sure every sentence is formed properly, or that every word is spelled correctly. This is not an English class. But I find it rather Ironic that he would accuse me of an unwillingness to be educated when he can't even bang out a sentence that at least conveys clear meaning.

And to the rest of your post. I have repeatedly stated that I am not berating LS Tractor's. None of my points even touched on the quality of them. I have NO EXPERIENCE at all with LS tractors. I am simply putting out there informational facts, or at least the facts that are readily available on the net, regarding their history and the obvious short comings of the dealer network and support compared to much better established companies.

I note that these points are not being addressed or acknowledged by any of the Champions of LS within the context I put forth, which was:

For a first time new tractor owner, Service and resale-ability are probably very important, and that the LS Tractor would have to be something pretty dang special in order to be placed ahead of the more established brands and dealerships. I never said that he should not buy an LS tractor, I said he should be Leary of them. And although that may be just "Opinion", I think it is generally sound advice.

[GManBart]

Thanks for those links. That second one in particular is very interesting. Here is a direct cut and past from the WIKI Page I lifted some of the information I provided. Please see the last sentence.


"LS Tractors is an engineering company. It is a division of LS Cable in South Korea. The group was originally part of the LG conglomeration, and was known as LG Tractors and LG Cable, respectively.
LS is associated with Mitsubishi tractors of Japan for technology, and many tractors are based on Mitsubishi designs, as well as use Mitsubishi engines. LS also imports New Holland Ag tractors to resell as LS-New Holland. (They originally had agreements with Fiat, which purchased New Holland. New Holland is a division of CNH Global)."

Now Wiki is by no means the final authority on anything. But by in large, the data contained there is generally accurate. The link you posted and the Wiki page seem to contradict each other. Who honestly knows which one is right. And then, maybe one or both are being viewed out of context. I do believe from other sources that the LS brand name did sell some New Holland tractors as LS. Rather or not LS actually built those New Holland tractors I guess is somewhat fuzzy. This conversation is purely academic by the way. I am not putting this out there to prove or disprove any point. Just conversing.

Time for a bit of Opinion.

I must admit that I have never been a fan of New Holland Tractors. A few childhood friends have owned different models over the years, and they are,,, what they are. Don't get me wrong, it's not that they are a bad tractor. I have already said that nobody really makes a terrible tractor anymore. Heck, even Jinma tractors are pretty good for what they are. But I am not surprised to learn some of the line up are Korean in make.

IMHO, There are a lot of Asian companies making tractors designed specifically for the Asian Market. There is a lot of small agriculture going on in some of these smaller economies, and the average owner can not afford super expensive tractors. What they are built to be is rugged. That's all they need to be. They do not require refinements and extra gadgets. All they need to do is run when they are called upon, and pull plows, wagons and so on. These same manufactures polish these tractors made for the Asian market up a bit, and sell them in the US. And they all share some similarities. Namely, they are just not as refined. And secondly, they often have a litany of tractor names connected to the same manufacturer. This sets these companies apart from those others whom produce only one brand of tractor, specifically for the US market. They are not trying to be all things to all people. They are building "Their Brand", and constantly refining them to the Market they were designed for.

This does not make a Kubota necessarily any "Better Then a New Holland, LS Tractor, or Mahindra, you get the point. But the tractors specifically designed for the US market reflect just that. Further, and most importantly to me, these tractors developed for the US market are also backed by a support and sales network to match. Something that these Asian companies struggle to compete with. In a way, the cards are stacked heavily against them in that sense, only because there are just SO MANY of them. There will always be a market for Economy Tractors. But the economy can never FULLY SUPPORT 57 different brands, enough to establish the kinds of networks that are available for JD, Kubota and so on.

One might ask then, why is New Holland one of the big players if they are selling tractors made by companies such as LS. Well, I would argue two points. Fist New Holland has been around for a considerably long time in the US. And they are still well known for their large agricultural tractors. But through mergers and acquisitions, New Holland is a diversified company. They contract out to companies in order to get into some markets. CUT's being a relevant example. So are New Holland Cut's really New Holland? Well, apparently not, they are actually LS Tractors, which is a Korean Company, building Korean Tractors, designed primarily for the Asian market. So what does the name New Holland mean anymore? New Holland to a degree is running on their Name and reputation from a long time ago. The name has recognition. And I assume their larger agri tractors are actually still generally "New Holland", if you take my meaning, even though FIAT owns the production line now.

Anyhow, all this to basically say, I am not surprised to find that some New Holland Equipment is made by a Korean Company. It would go a long way in explaining why I never really fell in love with them.

P.S.
Before someone speaks up and mentions that JAPAN is also an Asian country, I don't think I need to point out the distinction between the business models of companies like Kubota, VS these other Economy Tractor companies, do I?

What you may be missing is that aside from Kubota, all of the big names have outsourced their small to medium size tractors to other companies. They're pretty much all made in India, or S. Korea, or Japan.

I don't think the Korean models sold here are at all intended for the Asian market...both Kioti and LS built new factories for the purpose of gaining market share in the U.S.

As far as LS goes, you stumbled onto one of their quirks on their website. If you use the dealer locator, it only tells you the closest dealer, and no others. Pick a zip code 25-50 mi away, and you'll often find there's another dealer not that far away.

RCO Tractor has quite a few videos, and info available on their website, and YouTube channel. I spoke with them via e-mail, and phone, as well as talked to the two closest dealers to me, and got pretty consistent info across the board.

To put it in perspective, my tractor with NH badging, would be a Boomer 50, and would have cost me $29,500, compared to the $21,500 I paid. I got what I paid for, but somebody buying a Boomer 50 sure wouldn't be. Buying an outsourced deere, MF, Case, etc will have just as much "name brand overhead" built into the price....it has to be, or they're dumber than NH, by a lot, and I don't believe that. In this sort of business, expenses, and margins tend to be pretty similar from company, to company.

My dealer has been in business since the 70s, and they dropped several big names to sell LS, and Kioti, and they said they were fortunate to get those in place, because there are dealerships trying to become dealers for those two, but can't get in right now. The other local LS dealer is another family operation that's been around a similar number of years...I'm guessing they didn't last that long by taking bad risks.

[SSweet9c1]

Hey fellow upstate'ers. I am down in the Finger Lakes region.
Never had a SCUT, but I can vouch for the Maybie Brothers dealership.. We've had a MF dozer for a long time and I had an MF2200 (basicaly 135 with industrial loader/front axle) And Mabie Brother's parts department was FANTASTIC for our obsolete obscure old MF's. I am not affiliated with them, nor do I know if the MF SCUTs are any good..

I am a Kubota convert myself. I grew up driving old fords, and more recently some NH's like a 3930, and TC35, both larger than you are looking, but the build quality has not been great.
All that being said, I would pick a budget and find a tractor to fit it. Also realizing that you can always add impliments.
If the budget is 20,000 you can go new SCUT, or get one **** of a used L series... I would budget 15000 for something like a used L3400-L4400 (something along those lines) and 5000 for implements such as auger, snow blower etc... Craigslist is your friend!
Jonathan

[Singalo]

What you may be missing is that aside from Kubota, all of the big names have outsourced their small to medium size tractors to other companies. They're pretty much all made in India, or S. Korea, or Japan.

As far As I can tell, Massey Ferguson GC series, and MF1500 Series tractors are made by ISEKI of Japan. Maybe this is just an opinion, but I draw a distinction between the hardware coming out of Japan and the Hardware coming out of the rest of the Asian world. I feel that the Japanese tractors are among some of the finest in production.

I don't think the Korean models sold here are at all intended for the Asian market...both Kioti and LS built new factories for the purpose of gaining market share in the U.S.

Again, this may be a matter of opinion. Kioti and LS may have built new factories with the express purpose of gaining market share in the US. But they are still working with design's developed for the Asian Market. IMHO, the Sub Compacts coming out of Japan have set the standard by which all other Sub Compacts are measured in the West. Further, ISEKI builds the GC series tractor to AGCO specifications. The sister tractor with the ISEKI bage is very similar, yet they are not exactly the same. The GC is geared towards the US market. I think one could argue much more so then the average Economy Tractors coming out of Korea exct exct.

As far as LS goes, you stumbled onto one of their quirks on their website. If you use the dealer locator, it only tells you the closest dealer, and no others. Pick a zip code 25-50 mi away, and you'll often find there's another dealer not that far away.

Maybe, but they are still not nearly as common, and their website leaves MUCH to be desired on all fronts.

RCO Tractor has quite a few videos, and info available on their website, and YouTube channel. I spoke with them via e-mail, and phone, as well as talked to the two closest dealers to me, and got pretty consistent info across the board.

I don't know what you define as quite a few, but I found 5 videos from RCO concerning LS tractors. I found at least five more concerning LS tractors from other sources. 10 videos, on different models, and if I may be so bold, they were not exactly packed with details. What ever else you might say, you can't say there is an extensive number of videos for LS tractors available.

To put it in perspective, my tractor with NH badging, would be a Boomer 50, and would have cost me $29,500, compared to the $21,500 I paid. I got what I paid for, but somebody buying a Boomer 50 sure wouldn't be. Buying an outsourced deere, MF, Case, etc will have just as much "name brand overhead" built into the price....it has to be, or they're dumber than NH, by a lot, and I don't believe that. In this sort of business, expenses, and margins tend to be pretty similar from company, to company.

I tried to make this Point with Gary Fowler, I think that's his screen name. NH sub compact tractors may indeed by LS Tractors re-badged. But it is not at all clear that NH will work on, service, LS Tractors, for any price. There are many more NH dealers then there are LS dealers. So although you paid considerably less for the LS branded tractor, you are also getting far less backing. If you happen to live down the road from an LS dealer, you are lucky. But they are far from being as densely populated as other major brands. Maybe that's worth something, maybe its not. That's up to each individual.

My dealer has been in business since the 70s, and they dropped several big names to sell LS, and Kioti, and they said they were fortunate to get those in place, because there are dealerships trying to become dealers for those two, but can't get in right now. The other local LS dealer is another family operation that's been around a similar number of years...I'm guessing they didn't last that long by taking bad risks.

The dealers may have been around since the seventies, but they can only have been selling LS tractors since 2009-2008 when LS started selling their very own brand. Again, opinion here, It does not impress me that dealers "Drop" other brands. In fact, that is exactly what I don't want to see. I wonder how the owners of those tractors you dealer previously sold feel about their local dealership dissolving? Maybe he takes care of them. I don't know. What I do know is that many times when a dealer flips to a new brand, the old customers are left out in the cold. In any case, you can't reasonably claim that they have been selling LS Tractors since the 70's, because the LS tractor Brand in it's current form is only like 4 years old.

Edit: If NH will work on LS tractors, and more importantly can get replacement parts for them, that at least is a leg up for LS. I do wonder about the Cost of Ownership over time in that circumstance. Though any tractor repair out of warrantee is bound to be expensive. Probably more important that you can just get parts and work done on it. Resale value is still a concern however.

[SSweet9c1]

The other thing I forgot to mention to the Syracuse area folks, is that Twin Pines Power Equipment in Benton NY is an LS dealer. I have no experience with LS, but Twin Pines is a great dealership. Honest as the day is long. (again I have no affiliation with them other than having been a satisfied customer of their other products)
Jonathan

[GManBart]

As far As I can tell, Massey Ferguson GC series, and MF1500 Series tractors are made by ISEKI of Japan. Maybe this is just an opinion, but I draw a distinction between the hardware coming out of Japan and the Hardware coming out of the rest of the Asian world. I feel that the Japanese tractors are among some of the finest in production. As someone new to tractors what do you base that on? The Korean car industry has reached near parity with Japanese cars, and tractors are nowhere near as complicated.

Again, this may be a matter of opinion. Kioti and LS may have built new factories with the express purpose of gaining market share in the US. But they are still working with design's developed for the Asian Market. And you're certain of that how? You really know what was behind the design of their current tractors?

In any case, you can't reasonably claim that they have been selling LS Tractors since the 70's, because the LS tractor Brand in it's current form is only like 4 years old. I very clearly stated that they got in on LS and Kioti early, but never said that happened decades ago.

For someone new to tractors, you seem to have all the answers....good luck with that.

[GManBart]

But they are far from being as densely populated as other major brands. Maybe that's worth something, maybe its not. That's up to each

BTW, by my count there are 12 Massey Ferguson dealers in NY. There are 10 LS dealers in NY. What was that about the huge difference in density if dealers?

[TurkeyHerder]

Kubota B Seies!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Dagoof]

I inherited an almost new JD 2520 when I bought my two acres, and I love it.

It's probably bigger than I need, but it's nice to be able to mow 1.5 acres of grass in less than two hours and not have to worry about having enough beef to blow through the 2-3' snowdrifts.

I've seen a lot more people wish they had a bigger tractor than ones wanting a smaller tractor.

BTW,
Why not go with a front-mount snowblower?