Good article Mike. thanks. talks about things I haven't considered. sounds like my next step should be to remove one of these dented panels and take it to a good body shop or two and see what they have to say about those dents.MikeD74T said:
Theo
Any Gurus of the English Wheel out there?
- Thread starter JDeereman
- Start date
Theo
JDeereman said:
Who says repairing the panels without an English wheel is not doing the job right? There is a great deal puffery and delusion out there over the right and wrong way to repair a panel. I do take a great deal of pride in my work. I have had vehicles brought to me from all over the country, and I have worked on my share of antiques, show cars and bikes.
If you want a really nice job, your only going to get it so close metal finishing it, No matter how hard you work at it, or what you use. Even a lot of the time when you use brand new panels, the rest of the job has to done with either filler or primer. The guys that do "no Bondo" repairs load up the panels with heavy fill primer, which is the same thing as using body filler, (filler is filler, both are made from polyester), except the primer costs a lot more, and because of all the trapped solvents, shrinks up more down the road.
So, if your one of those "I don't want no Bondo in my car" guys, get over it. If you possess the skills, the repairs won't be a third class hatchet job, they will be undetectable. Doing the job right is not about what tools you use, its about how it looks and how it holds up when your done.
No offense intended man but I guess I did manage to set you off. sorry about that. if this was a simple automotive repair, I would have no big problem with a little bondo here and there provided it was well done. this is different. these repairs will be visible from both sides and I don't want the repair to be too blatantly obvious. this equipment flexes and vibrates a lot and I don't want cracks appearing down the road. these covers sometimes close hard if someone is not careful and I don't want them to chip. simple as that. and no, my son and I are not professional restorers. this is a hobby. this is a project for us. we just want to do the best job we possibly can. is that such a bad goal?ray66v said:
Theo
schmism
Super Member
the other thing most "old timmers" dont understand about "bondo" these days is the new polyeseter versions now used, are 100x better than the old "red" stuff of the days past. Its flexable, has anti-buildup compunds in it for sanding.
Ive been working with my neighbor who builds custom bikes on the side. I help a lot on the design of some of the more mechanical stuff, as well as try to learn the art of body and paint work. He ran a body shop for years. Last time i helped him block some body pannels out of raw bondow with 220, i thought for shure my paper would load up in like 3 heavy swipes like i remember as a kid, but nope, after nearly 30 min of heavy sanding, the paper still had virtually no buildup on it dispite never having touched the surface.
Ive seen him tweek a custom bent fender, after its bondo'd and painted nearly an inch with no ill effect. back in the old days if you even looked at the bondo wrong (even if it was thin) id crack or flake off if you even thought of bending the metal after you were done.
as for the english wheel, he has one thats a cross between an eastwood and an HF for quality. Its OK, but like they say, its not heavy duity enough to really do some quick work. It works, just takes longer. and is really the only way to get nice flowing 2D curves. After getting an Eastwood set of shrinkers/expanders, he uses that a LOT more with his plantishing (sp?) hammer than he does the english wheel.
Ive been working with my neighbor who builds custom bikes on the side. I help a lot on the design of some of the more mechanical stuff, as well as try to learn the art of body and paint work. He ran a body shop for years. Last time i helped him block some body pannels out of raw bondow with 220, i thought for shure my paper would load up in like 3 heavy swipes like i remember as a kid, but nope, after nearly 30 min of heavy sanding, the paper still had virtually no buildup on it dispite never having touched the surface.
Ive seen him tweek a custom bent fender, after its bondo'd and painted nearly an inch with no ill effect. back in the old days if you even looked at the bondo wrong (even if it was thin) id crack or flake off if you even thought of bending the metal after you were done.
as for the english wheel, he has one thats a cross between an eastwood and an HF for quality. Its OK, but like they say, its not heavy duity enough to really do some quick work. It works, just takes longer. and is really the only way to get nice flowing 2D curves. After getting an Eastwood set of shrinkers/expanders, he uses that a LOT more with his plantishing (sp?) hammer than he does the english wheel.
AlanB
Elite Member
JD man, maybe if you would post some pics, we could help you along the way in getting them straight.
For a general primer though on sheetmetal, the Fournier books are hard too beat.
Everyone has different specs and grades that they feel are important to them, and the stuff they are working on, the only person you need to satisfy is yourself.
The saying I always liked, cannot remember where it came from was
"good enough for the man it is for"
I come from an Aviation sheetmetal background, so what is the "norm" for my thinking is sometimes very different from the norm for an automotive guy.
The 2 guys I said were artisans are a father and son. I think the son is now in his late 50's and his dad did a lot of the prototype sheetmetal for the Blackhawk.
The dad built a Chord (old automobile, spelling wrong I bet) from a coffee table book and the Son builds parts for cars that there are no parts to get.
Added on edit
Cord Automobile - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I think it was an 812 front wheel drive he built, point being, those body panels are the domain of the English wheel.
Anyway, sounds like an interesting project that could be something positive as well. Share some pics or details maybe of what you are trying to work with.
For a general primer though on sheetmetal, the Fournier books are hard too beat.
Everyone has different specs and grades that they feel are important to them, and the stuff they are working on, the only person you need to satisfy is yourself.
The saying I always liked, cannot remember where it came from was
"good enough for the man it is for"
I come from an Aviation sheetmetal background, so what is the "norm" for my thinking is sometimes very different from the norm for an automotive guy.
The 2 guys I said were artisans are a father and son. I think the son is now in his late 50's and his dad did a lot of the prototype sheetmetal for the Blackhawk.
The dad built a Chord (old automobile, spelling wrong I bet) from a coffee table book and the Son builds parts for cars that there are no parts to get.
Added on edit
Cord Automobile - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I think it was an 812 front wheel drive he built, point being, those body panels are the domain of the English wheel.
Anyway, sounds like an interesting project that could be something positive as well. Share some pics or details maybe of what you are trying to work with.
Ok, I'll try again to help you.JDeereman said:
1. "These repairs will be visible from both sides and I don't want the repair to be too blatantly obvious".
--- No matter how you repair the panels you will have the same problem. There is no magic wand. If there was, I would have bought the first one.
2. "This equipment flexes and vibrates a lot and I don't want cracks appearing down the road".
--- The primer and paint are just as susceptible to cracking as the filler will be. You need to find a way of dealing with this besides thinking that eliminating any filler will make it go away.
3. "These covers sometimes close hard if someone is not careful and I don't want them to chip".
--- You need to find a way to make them close easy and have enough clearance, or some type of stop, before you repair them. Or, no matter how you do this job, this is not going to change.
4. "my son and I are not professional restorers. this is a hobby. this is a project for us".
--- Thats great, but as I suggested, if you are in over your head, and I can see that you are, your far better off getting help now. It will be cheaper to do it right the first time. Than doing the job over.
5. " we just want to do the best job we possibly can. is that such a bad goal?"
-- -No, that is not a bad goal, that in fact, should be your only goal.
I am willing to assist you in what ever way I can, if you want the help.