House insulation and house wrap

   / House insulation and house wrap
  • Thread Starter
#11  
RayfromTX, first thank you. Agree about Matt's videos. I used to watch, but I don't anymore. It was always the next best thing. Great videos, just felt like a commercial.

I know I have lots to learn. So that's why I'm here to get opinions and great knowledge and then research and make my final decision. I have already lessened from another site, that my rigid board will have to be at least 2.5 inches our the air will condensate inside the way...not good.
 
   / House insulation and house wrap #12  
RedNeck - I agree with the r value and cost. I would like to get more of an air barrier with it. I also agree with the vinyl, spend a little bit more money on it. I just want something I can install and forget about it. My parents installed some 25 years ago and no problems, they are not easy on it.

snodbbs - I have read the zip is inconsistent and you have to be carfully how tight you screw it around widow and door openings. I have spent a decent amount of time reserching it, because I think it is a good product. I would rather have my sheathing up tight against my wall studs.

The tyvek is an air barrier as i understand it, the only thing that you have to be careful of is the edges. I got the tyvek tape and sealed every hole I came across. I also used flexible blue skin to flash my windows and doors to the tyvek. You could also silicone your sheathing seams and glue it to the studs. I also took the extra step of spray foaming all of my stud bays around the outside edge where the studs butted up against the sheathing.
 
   / House insulation and house wrap #13  
rjw
Water in liquid or vapor form or adsorbed form(there is a difference between adsorbed and absorbed, which is part of what we need to understand) moves from wet to dry and from warm to cold. How is that important when considering whether to use cavity insulation?

Notice I'm not talking about products or sequencing. I want to understand the science and then I can more properly frame the questions that we ask about how to build and with what.
 
   / House insulation and house wrap #14  
Our interior insulation will be mineral wool r23, then 1/2 plywood sheathing. Here is where the debut comes in. I would like to put 3/4 rigid board insulation on the outside to help with thermal bridging and to help as an air barrier. Questions on house wrap.

About ten years ago, give or take, Green Building really took off and became the focus on home building. The magazines all had the latest, greatest, bestest methods to get the most energy efficient home possible. Then the following month, they had a new, different way to achieve this. The vast majority of these new methods where based on insulating the walls. What I struggled with when reading everything that they where doing was the R rating of the windows. Why spend tens of thousands of dollars more on your walls to get an R value into the 20's when you have a window on every wall that is R3?

Since heat rises and cold settles, the biggest thing is what's happening in the attic. R60 is about as good as you can get and it's super cheap and easy to do with blown in insulation. Just keep putting it in there until it's two feet thick and NEVER go into your attic again. So that leaves the walls. How to improve the walls. Used to be that you just went thicker using 2x6's to get R19 over 2x4's at R13. The problem with walls is the wind. If air can get through the siding, and then the sheething, it defeats the insulation regardless of how thick it is. House wrap does a lot to solve this and it should have been named "wind barrier" not water barrier since that's kind of misleading. It helps keep water out, but that's not too hard to do and not why it's important. Keeping the wind out is why you need house wrap. There are different grades of house wrap and Hardie makes one of the best in my opinion. The goal is to seal it off so air does not get through it.

As with anything, there are experts that will tell you that you need to go to their extreme version to do it right. In order to do this, you will spend a fortune achieving this level of perfection. For some, it's makes them feel better to have done all this, but in the end, the cost savings are not there. I prefer to follow best common practices and shy away from the latest, greatest idea of the day. Spend a fortune on your walls, and you still have R3 windows. Get triple pane windows and you increase your R value a little bit, but it's not worth the cost. There is even 4 pane windows out there that are awesome if you live next to SFO Airport and you need to stop the noise, which I know a person who did this with good results, but the cost of those windows was freakishly expensive!!! Look at how 99 percent of all houses in your area are built and you will find that nobody is spending the extra money to create super efficient walls. The reason is that it's not cost effective to do so. And for those willing to spend the money, then spraying closed cell foam is the best thing out there.

I prefer OSB over plywood. For less money, you get a better product. Half inch construction grade plywood is full of voids and in every sheet, you will have area that blow away on the back side when nailed. I do not believe there is such a thing as half inch construction grade plywood that doesn't have areas of it that you only have two layers of wood. While most of the sheet might be fine, it's never going to be all of it. I rarely use house wrap anymore since Zip Siding has become available. That is my favorite by a huge margin!!

Here, vinyl isn't a premium product. It's used to hide wood issues on older homes and a red flag when looking to buy a house. Hardie is very popular.
 
   / House insulation and house wrap #15  
I really like Matt. There is so much to not like about Matt's videos. He gets really convinced that products will work as they are advertised and then the failures happen and he gets convinced that this other product will perform the magic that is promised. This video shows some of that. He talks about peel and sticks being teased as really being stick and peel. Then he talks about how this new zip tape won't have those failures but it is even worse in reality. Tapes and goops are usually short lived. Zip wall isn't air tight and it is compromised by the fasteners. Painted plywood isn't a drainage plain for the ages. There are other examples in this short video.

The expert trainer in the video is shown driving screws right down through the pan he just created. The failures that we see over and over aren't just poor workmanship. In many cases it is products that are used just as the manufacturer recommends. This pan isn't a pan, it is an illusion and the window installation will trap water in the compromised pan. Matt knows a lot about marketing but he still has much to learn about building science. Products are no substitute for knowledge.

I am criticizing Matt's videos which isn't really fair. He makes great videos. The one he did on my site was adlib and he got 80% of it right. He has great presentation skills. He needs to learn the science and then he wouldn't fall for the sales pitches. I would recommend that y'all do the same.

Here is the bottom line take away for a subject that simply can't be covered by internet forum posts. Every sentence is backed by decades of painful lessons. These products won't save you. They will fail and they won't perform the way you are counting on them to. I can tell many stories of this in my long career doing custom residential. If you aren't sure, and I mean absolutely positive that you know what I'm talking about and how to keep water out of your buildings in all it's forms then do yourself a big favor. Keep your roof lines simple and flash properly and use overhangs to keep the walls and windows from getting wet because windows leak either soon or later. Use real pans and real head flashings. Nailing fins are a mistake. Under no circumstance should you minimize the overhangs for a nicer look or minimize the roof pitch because a product will protect you. The manufacturers are selling you a bill of goods. The condos that you see going up with no overhangs and balconies everywhere are going to be the next leaky condo crisis with billions of dollars in losses.

The good news is that the knowledge is available to both understand the problems and build buildings that perform exceptionally well and can last virtually forever. The materials we need are available and the methods are affordable. Matt even does some videos that show some what I'm referring to but it just isn't quite ready for publication and yet ready or not he has published 500 videos! He told me he has only removed a couple for being obsolete. All the rest are still floating around out there.

Rjwassink67- The good news for you is you still have lots of time to learn. You can learn first about the physics of heat air and moisture. Learn about the second law of thermodynamics. Don't be intimidated by it. This is no more complicated than understanding tractors. I'm really happy that you want to understand the best way to build your house. Approach it from how moisture in all 4 phases are a threat to your buildings and then how building science can help you to understand the risks and failures and then the understanding of how water moves will inform the methods for managing it. I got involved 18 years ago because in my lifelong quest to build better buildings I decided to figure out how to build a smarter house with complicated systems that managed these issues, kind of like our cars and washing machines and air conditioners. I soon learned that what is required to build better buildings is to understand the issues and then build simple walls and roofs, etc with the right materials in the right place so that the solutions are passive and durable and logical. Enjoy the journey but beware of the sales pitch.

I agree with the simple roof pitch. I’ve seen dozens or more leaks where 2 roof lines meet. I’ve never seen a skylight that doesn’t leak. A masonry Chimney isn’t much better.
 
   / House insulation and house wrap #16  
Subscribed to continue learning. I only worry about drafts on the windy side of the house :D, not that I have to be particularly airtight. (44th parallel, so many more 'heating days' than 'cooling days'.) I have air equalization in mech room for Nat Gas furnace and WH, so drafty windows aren't often obvious. Two 'small' and attached garage on upwind side 5 'various' and an entry door alee.

Receiving thermal camera accessory tomorrow. ("Seek Compact" for IOS) For a while then, I'm planning to work more from cold spots and less from youtube pitches.

I wish I could be sure such a gadget didn't need the house built already to be of the most use to the OP, but if one could help along the way ... <$200 for me to play with and report to ya's. t o g
 
   / House insulation and house wrap #17  
RayfromTX is the ONLY guy I'd listen to on this topic. I'd love to have a few hours of his time or be on one of his projects for a few days.
Nothing wrong with vinyl siding installed & maintained properly. The only thing faster & cheaper and darn near permanent, is "barn" type metal that with a little imagination with trim colors & wainscot or stone/brick can look fantastic also.
 
   / House insulation and house wrap #18  
Quote----
I agree with the simple roof pitch. I致e seen dozens or more leaks where 2 roof lines meet. I致e never seen a skylight that doesn稚 leak. A masonry Chimney isn稚 much better.

I agree on all 3 counts.
Meeting roof lines are a current craze, looks cool.
A problem I often see is attic air circulation as all too often non existent due to the converging angles.
I have seen huge icicles emitting from those converging angles.

Leaking skylights---you insulate the ceiling to the nth degree and insert a piece of glass (at worst spot) rated at about R 3or 4, guess what, it condenses like crazy.*

Then comes the roof overhang, little or even often none!
I like 2 foot overhang as that way water drips away from the siding and usually misses the windows.

*LOL, the designers placed a skylight over the bath tub area for a cool effect.
Dang thing condensed so much (hey over hot water) that the owners were getting a cold shower when bathing.
About the only good thing was that snow was always melted away due to heat loss.
 
 
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