Kubota B21 Fuel Stop Solenoid Issue

   / Kubota B21 Fuel Stop Solenoid Issue
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#21  
Couple of extra pages on the OPC as well, I hadn't looked at them, only the main diagram. Ha, upside down and all, you'll have to flip them. Check you wiring and connections thoroughly and see if you can get it all working back to original spec. Pull the OPC and check the pins/connectors, and perhaps if it's easy, check solder/wire connection on the PCB if there is one. Not sure will attach here very well, will give it a go, if it doesn't work, message me your email.

Thanks again! The OPC is a closed unit other then the wires coming out and the plug. With a meter attached to check voltage on multiple circuits, moving just the OPC unit would change the voltage, cause voltage to drop etc, holding it steady and just squeezing it also changed the voltage. I think I may have shorted something when I found the chewed wires. Battery was still connected to the system!
 
   / Kubota B21 Fuel Stop Solenoid Issue #22  
.........symptoms much like the OP. (two wire solenoid, random cut out, and random no start.)
Hopefully you'll get the the fault eventually
Usually.........no crank - Clutch, PTO, Neutral/HST/gear switches
Usually.........intermittent cut out - faulty seat switch or connections
If you bridge anything for testing, make sure you use a proper made up bridge wire with spade connectors, not a paper clip or piece of wire shoved in the end.
 
   / Kubota B21 Fuel Stop Solenoid Issue #23  
Hopefully you'll get the the fault eventually
Usually.........no crank - Clutch, PTO, Neutral/HST/gear switches
Usually.........intermittent cut out - faulty seat switch or connections
If you bridge anything for testing, make sure you use a proper made up bridge wire with spade connectors, not a paper clip or piece of wire shoved in the end.

100td

your comments are well taken, but I've got it narrowed down to the fuel cut of controller.
No seat switch on this tractor (Hurlimann) and I can tell the difference between no crank and no start ;-)

It certainly could be a faulty connection between the key switch and the fuel cut out control box, but then I would not expect to hear the "click" of the solenoid in response to cycling the key. When I hear the click, it's good to go..;-)
Note: I've pulled and reset all the connectors associated with the fuel cut off control and solenoid. Another member posted the EXACT SAME situation with his SAME (Same tractor).

Electronic "black boxes" are made to fail. ;-)

ETA

That wiring scheme is confusing, why would a single energizing wire supply two distinct solenoid coils? There is no control that way unless it were via voltage control. That is, full battery voltage at opening, then through a resistor circuit (inside the "controller") that provided sufficient voltage drop (current limiting) to cause one of the two solenoid coils to "drop out". Wouldn't it be more obvious to run an additional wire?
 
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   / Kubota B21 Fuel Stop Solenoid Issue #24  
While the controller may be at fault, MOST faults come down to a missing or erratic input to the controller, i.e. a bad connection or switch somewhere.

Re the wiring diagram, over the years components change, parts suppliers reduce stock held by quantity and type, combine functions, OPC's get added, safeties get added, but need to be fitted to existing wiring etc, no point in making a whole new harness if something else can be done etc., can't get that solenoid anymore but this new improved one will do the trick.


A LOT of solenoids have 2 coils, one pull in, to do the work, draws high current, is an intermittent duty coil, will burn out if continuously powered, and one hold in, just to hold the solenoid now it has been pulled in, draws low current, is continuous duty, won't burn out if continuously powered.
These are generally powered by 2 separate circuits, pull in by start key, OPC or similar, hold in by IGN or RUN position.

Back in the old days you may remember (or may not) stop solenoids were just that, they only STOPPED the engine, they needed to be powered to STOP the engine, they were single circuit, drew high power, would burn out if continually powered, they rusted up, wore out from vibration, stuck in place and wouldn't actuate when powered. But this was not a safe situation, if something failed, wiring rubbed thru, fuse blew, coil burnt out, the engine would not stop.

When a circuit is designed correctly with safety in mind, the circuit and control logic needs to be wired and controlled as "fail_safe", meaning if any of the above happened, then it actually shuts down. So if a wire breaks, a fuse blows, a switch fails, coil burns out, it shut downs, no matter what.

Therefore a change was made to "powered" solenoids to keep the engine running.

This can be achieved by the 2 circuit solenoid, however, they sometimes will burn out when having continuous cranking when you have run out of fuel, or when the key is held in start position when the starter motor doesn't work etc.

The addition of a built in switch in the pull in coil circuit within the solenoid coil circuit allows the pull in circuit to be powered, but won't burn the coil out. So this particular solenoid can be used with both wires powered together as in this circuit, or in another circuit on another engine with different controls and wiring running 2 separate circuits.

The wiring diagram posted does not show the internal switching of the pull in coil, but if you know how a dual circuit solenoid of a starter motor works you will understand the principle. Depending on the starter, some do it as noted above, some have the pull in coil energised through the windings and brushes to ground, as soon as the starter plunger pulls in and powers the motor, the pull in coil has positive on both ends of it's coil so no current flows and is effectively out of circuit.

The fact that when he originally powered the single pull in coil ALONE, and it operated like a machine gun shows it had a switch in the pull in circuit (or other design feature to limit/control current). Current limiting via separate resistor etc. can also be done, but it's up to each manufacturer/supplier as to how they control things.
 
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   / Kubota B21 Fuel Stop Solenoid Issue #25  
On a side note regards starter motors in GENERAL, when you hear a light click when you turn the key (at the starter motor solenoid), but no crank, and you tap the starter and it springs to life, your brushes are worn out or sticky, because you don't have a pull in coil circuit which goes through your windings and brushes to ground to make a circuit. When you get a loud clack/clack/clack like the machine gun, you hold in coil is not working or burnt out.
However, if you get a loud clack, but no start, your internal solenoid contacts driving the motor are worn out. It can depend on how the manufacture controls/wires the coils.
 
   / Kubota B21 Fuel Stop Solenoid Issue #26  
A little off topic, but this fuel cut off issue has been discussed several times over the past months.

I have looked on line using the google search, but have not seen a "generic" fuel controller offered.
I have a Mitsubishi engined tractor with a Mitsubishi fuel control module that has symptoms much like the OP. (two wire solenoid, random cut out, and random no start.)
I've just disconnected the solenoid and use the manual fuel cut off lever to stop the engine I really should repair the control by the key switch.

I also have a Mitsubishi K3D powered Toro mower. Also have the random no start and random no shut off by the ignition key. You can hear the solenoid pulling in and out during the random no start. I pulled the ignition switch and tested it on the bench for continuity in the run and start positions per the workshop manual. It had some resistance at all of the terminals at the different key positions.

A new switch was ordered and tested. This time continuity was spot on. Haven't had time to install and test it out yet. Hopefully by the end of the week to see if this fixes it.
 
   / Kubota B21 Fuel Stop Solenoid Issue #27  
Installed new switch last night and it fixed the problem.

Might be something to look at CalG if you haven't already. Switch was on $15 on EBay.
 
 
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