Ballast L series doesn't feel safe with bucket on
- Thread starter yamrpt
- Start date
A little background: I have driven 4WDs off road some and have a 4WD Jeep with winch, etc, but am certainly nothing more than a novice at this stuff and usually leave the hardcore off roading to others. In the recent past I have ridden in a H1 Hummer with a professional driver, up, down and around a slick rock mountain in Moab, Utah, day and night with nothing but shear drop offs of 60' to several hundred feet or more, what seemed to be about 24 - 32" on either side of the Hummer during several significant passages. I also saw a lesser vehicle try and traverse one passage of what we did, at night to no avail, and had to back down, which would have been a FAR scarier proposition to me; I would have crawled back down somehow, as walking this steep of a slope would not have possible- safely. I would not have driven this venue myself, but enjoyed it with a professional driver.
My property is fairly densely wooded. The tractor was actually pointed a bit downhill and had just weaved through some trees, with more of them on my left- uphill side than on the right- downhill side. The tire I thought might be lifting a bit was the left rear and was on the uphill side. Turning to the left to head back uphill would not have been a good thing to do.
My only moving option due to the terrain was to slowly bear right to make sure the left rear was on the ground and stayed there. Once stabilized with the tractor pointing directly downhill, I dumped the load from the bucket as I was nearly at my targeted spot anyway. At this point I needed differential lock, which simply spun both rear tires in HST low with only minimal throttle. Engaging 4WD got me out of there. and I was able to back to a point I could safely turn around.
It would have been nice had I been able to drive far enough forward to get to a level enough spot to turn around. But the trees were not going to allow that.
k0ua
Epic Contributor
Just some friendly advice, when traversing country like that with any hills and a load on, you need to be in 4WD to begin with. With a load in the bucket you rears are "unloaded" and you can start a slide downhill you cannot easily recover from. Any time you go crawling around in the woods, unless it is perfectly flat is a good time to be in 4WD.
James K0UA
crazyal
Super Member
People seam to forget or not understand that the front axle pivots in the center so it's not going to stop the tractor from tipping over sideways. By the time the hard stop for the front axle is reached it's too late. That means your rear tires provide all of your sideways stability. Other than that your only friend is your loader and how quickly you can get it firmly on the ground if one of the rear tires starts to leave the ground.
And that is another excellent point. I have greased that pivot point and never really thought about the ramifications of that until now. And that makes sense why my left rear tire got light earlier than I would have expected from non-tractor experiences.
vtsnowedin
Elite Member
Heck I haven't had mine out of four wheel drive in nine months. I bought a four wheel drive tractor to have "four wheel drive" and the only time I want it in two wheel drive is when I'm traveling down a hard gravel or paved road which is not that often. It did a great job last weekend shuttling cord wood out of my sugar bush, only had to hit the diff lock once pulling an eighth cord bucket full up over a two to one slope onto the woods road. :cool2:
RaydaKub
Veteran Member
I had decided to let this issue die, but it has been brought back again 2 weeks later.
While I stand by my previous analysis, I will NOT stand by the conclusion.
One of the beauties of having this forum is that we can learn from each other. So, here it is:
I was wrong.
I also learned I shouldn't append after an 18 hour day.
I adopted the language of an opposing viewpoint and thus let it lead me astray.There, that wasn't so hard. Now, let me explain myself. I believe there are 4 states to the tractor rolling.
State 1) All 4 wheels firmly planted on the ground.
State 2) Oops, you just lifted a rear wheel.
State 3) The rear wheel has lifted (by 5 degrees, measured above) off the ground and hit the front axle stop.
State 4) You're screwed. Hope you remembered your belt.
As stories accumulate in various threads, it is obvious that going from state 1 to state 4 can all happen in the blink of an eye. I've never hit stage 4. I may have hit state 3 (that was not where my attention was focused). I've definitely done state 2, and on several different models.
What I should have said in my first append was this: the front axle will not help keep your rear wheel on the ground. It will help keep you from rolling over because the pivot point will move (in that instant between states 2 and 3) from the center to the outside of the front wheel. This can not do anything *BUT* help prevent a roll over. So yes, the wide front will help at some point.
I guess I would disagree with Mr. Fowler on his assertion that a tractor won't roll until you hit 45 degrees. I think that is very much a matter of the tractor geometry and ballasting. I'll bet quite a few rolls have happened considerably less than 45 degrees while there is an old MF 135 one of our colleagues owns that probably would slide down before it rolled. If that was not the intent of the comment, my apologies. Please explain what was meant however.
The problem here is that all of the measurements and states refer to a static situation, but there is never anything static about it. This always happens in a very dynamic situation. If the rear wheel has already lifted off the ground, there is a good possibility that there is some momentum there already (like the uphill tire bouncing off a rock) that is going to advance from state 2 to state 3 very quickly. Now the question is whether there is still enough there to cause it to stop the roll.
Finally, I would hope that it is recognized that whether the front axle actually prevents a roll or not in any given situation (and we have a graphic example where it did) that those that believe it doesn't, have not made that situation any more dangerous. Those that have advocated the no-help position have been saying that you shouldn't depend on the front axle to stop the roll. Am I glad it is there? Yup. Do I want to *depend* on it being there? Not a chance. As I read the statement "your tractor wont roll till past 45 degrees so the front will help prevent a turn over" (see above), it came across to me as if nobody should worry about the wheel lifting off the ground because it would still be safe once the front stop is hit. To use an analogy, I was advocating staying at least 12 inches from the edge of the cliff, while what I read was telling me that I'd still be safe at 3 inches. Both positions are safe, but I'd still rather stay 12.
There. Insulated underwear on, let the flames fly.
vtsnowedin
Elite Member
I had decided to let this issue die, but it has been brought back again 2 weeks later.
While I stand by my previous analysis, I will NOT stand by the conclusion.
One of the beauties of having this forum is that we can learn from each other. So, here it is:
I was wrong.
I also learned I shouldn't append after an 18 hour day.
There, that wasn't so hard. Now, let me explain myself. I believe there are 4 states to the tractor rolling.
State 1) All 4 wheels firmly planted on the ground.
State 2) Oops, you just lifted a rear wheel.
State 3) The rear wheel has lifted (by 5 degrees, measured above) off the ground and hit the front axle stop.
State 4) You're screwed. Hope you remembered your belt.
As stories accumulate in various threads, it is obvious that going from state 1 to state 4 can all happen in the blink of an eye. I've never hit stage 4. I may have hit state 3 (that was not where my attention was focused). I've definitely done state 2, and on several different models.
What I should have said in my first append was this: the front axle will not help keep your rear wheel on the ground. It will help keep you from rolling over because the pivot point will move (in that instant between states 2 and 3) from the center to the outside of the front wheel. This can not do anything *BUT* help prevent a roll over. So yes, the wide front will help at some point.
I guess I would disagree with Mr. Fowler on his assertion that a tractor won't roll until you hit 45 degrees. I think that is very much a matter of the tractor geometry and ballasting. I'll bet quite a few rolls have happened considerably less than 45 degrees while there is an old MF 135 one of our colleagues owns that probably would slide down before it rolled. If that was not the intent of the comment, my apologies. Please explain what was meant however.
The problem here is that all of the measurements and states refer to a static situation, but there is never anything static about it. This always happens in a very dynamic situation. If the rear wheel has already lifted off the ground, there is a good possibility that there is some momentum there already (like the uphill tire bouncing off a rock) that is going to advance from state 2 to state 3 very quickly. Now the question is whether there is still enough there to cause it to stop the roll.
Finally, I would hope that it is recognized that whether the front axle actually prevents a roll or not in any given situation (and we have a graphic example where it did) that those that believe it doesn't, have not made that situation any more dangerous. Those that have advocated the no-help position have been saying that you shouldn't depend on the front axle to stop the roll. Am I glad it is there? Yup. Do I want to *depend* on it being there? Not a chance. As I read the statement "your tractor wont roll till past 45 degrees so the front will help prevent a turn over" (see above), it came across to me as if nobody should worry about the wheel lifting off the ground because it would still be safe once the front stop is hit. To use an analogy, I was advocating staying at least 12 inches from the edge of the cliff, while what I read was telling me that I'd still be safe at 3 inches. Both positions are safe, but I'd still rather stay 12.
There. Insulated underwear on, let the flames fly.
I've worked some twelve hour plus days myself lately and some of them night shift which is a whole nother can of worms to deal with. I certainly jumped on your point with less then anything that could be called civility and for that I apologize. I would direct other readers here to the expert guides you can find on line to get to the truth of the matter before they find themselves in your position 4. A properly set up tractor for the conditions expected plus operator experience and due caution are the best defense as any tractor can overturn if pushed past it's limits, or dropped into too deep a hole.
Keep your ROPS up and your wheels down.
RaydaKub
Veteran Member
:drink:Keep your ROPS up and your wheels down.