LP by the gallon, by the pound

   / LP by the gallon, by the pound #11  
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( anyone dispensing C3 at a garage must have attented a certification course )</font>

C3? That's a new name to me, but now you have to be certified in Texas, too (don't know whether it's the same nationwide or not). All my (very limited) experience was filling DOT cylinders, for RVs and gas grills, up to 40# or 10 gallons, and ASME permanently mounted tanks on motorhomes.
 
   / LP by the gallon, by the pound #12  
<font color="blue"> in Minnesota it is illegal to refill them </font>

I think he is referring to the old style pig without the pressure relief valve. It is now illegal to refill this type in Iowa too, probably nation wide.

<font color="blue"> Surely you don't have to buy a new bottle every time you empty one </font>

Lowe's has a service were you buy a full pig and then when you need more gas, you exchange the empty for a full one and are charged for just the gas.

My brother in law uses LPG to dry down his grain and fills my BBQ tanks off of his large tank. Like Bird said earlier, fills until liquid comes from the bleed hole. It's convienent and he only charges me $5 to fill my 20 lb. pig /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
   / LP by the gallon, by the pound #13  
Sorry to revive an old thread, but I just found it, and I might be able to add something, as I've been in the LP gas dispensing business for a number of years.

It's the dispenser's choice whether to charge by the pound or by the gallon. Two reasons for charging by the pound are to obscure the price ($0.50/pound sounds better than $2.10/gallon); and because scales are always accurate, but meters tend to wander a bit. In our area, scales are checked every year, but meters are no longer checked. They used to be checked every 3 years. With that said, I charge per gallon because it's easier on motor homes and large tanks that can't be weighed.

The rest of this is about small portable cylinders, up to 40# capacity. About cylinders which can no longer be filled - there's a fair amount of misinformation out there. Until 1994, all cylinders had internal left hand threads, and usually required a wrench to tighten the attachment. People forgot about the "wrong" threads and bungled up the fittings pretty good; left the fittings loose if they couldn't find a wrench; or used the regulator for a "wrench", which, while tightening the POL fitting to the cylinder, actually loosened the RH threads to the regulator. All of those contributed to lots of fires from leaks.

In 1994, the QCC-1 (Quick Connect Coupler) fitting was introduced on small cylinders. These used an external, acme-like thread to attach to the cylinder. They use "normal" RH threads, are large enough to tighten by hand, and use a rubber seal to prevent leaks. They also have a check valve that prevents gas from flowing unless something is attached. The QCC coupling nut has a thermal ring that will melt at the temperature of a grease fire, allowing the fitting to pop out, thereby closing the check valve and cutting off the flow of gas. Great safety, at the price of converting all the cylinders. By the way, all cylinders, including the newest ones, still have the internal, left hand thread attachment.

But, there was still a significant safety problem. Many cylinders were being inadvertantly overfilled, often by untrained or careless dispensers, but even occasionally by the automated stations used by exchange services. LP Gas is very sensitive to temperature changes, and an overfilled cylinder can build up pressure to the point where it blows off at the pressure relief valve. This free release of flammable gas can come at very incoventient times, often causing a "floomph". A properly filled cylinder is only filled to 80% capacity, allowing a 20% expansion space.

So, the federal D.O.T. (which regulates all portable cylinders) mandated that all cylinders be fitted with Overfill Prevention Devices (OPD). What this consists of is a float and valving inside the cylinder that works a lot like a toilet tank valve - when the cylinder is 80% full, the float comes up, shuts off the flow and prevents the cylinder from being overfilled. These were required on all new cylinders in October, 1998, and in April, 2003, it became illegal to refill any cylinder without OPD. (This applies to all cylinders up to and including 40 pound capacity - cylinders 50# and up are not required to be OPD. Also excluded are cylinders used in welding applications, and fork lift cylinders, which use a different attachment, anyway).

The only way to convert a cylinder to OPD is to replace the entire valve assembly - there are no conversions to the valves, themselves. OPD is internal. It's confusing, because it was just a few years before that QCC came into being, and some people see the two things as one. If you have expensive 40# cylinders, or expensive aluminum cylinders of any size, it's worth taking to a gas company and having new valves installed. For 20# grill cylinders, the cheapest thing to to is just to exchange the old tank for a proper new (or converted) one from one of the exchange racks. It's also more cost effective to buy a new cylinder than to install a new valve in a 20# cylinder.

Which leads me to the final tip - avoid the exchange racks if possible. First of all, you'll pay more (often a lot more) for an exchange than for a refill. Second, you probably won't be getting a full fill. Read the small print on the exchange rack - it probably says 17# net weight, meaning that you're getting 3# less (almost 3/4 gallon) than your cylinder will safely hold. And finally, unless you don't have a dispensing station pretty close by, the exchange racks are actually less convenient. You have to wait for a clerk to make time to open the rack, often only to find that all their full cylinders have been sold. I've known customers to go to 3 or 4 stores on a holiday weekend.

You can have any OPD cylinder refilled at any dispenser, even if it is an exchange cylinder, no matter what it says on the wrapper. You owned the cylinder you traded in, so you now own the cylinder you got from the exchange rack.
 
   / LP by the gallon, by the pound #14  
I just read my post, and I noticed I said "all" small cyinders have the internal left hand threads as well as the QCC couplings on newer ones. I left out the Hansen Quick Disconnect (Q/D) connections that used to be used by Weber, Ducane and a few other upscale grills. These are similar to the type on air hoses and Q/D hydraulic fittings. The older ones do not have OPD. There are newer ones with OPD, and they can still be refilled. But, they have fallen into disuse because it's prhibitive for retailers of new cylinders and for exchange services to keep two different styles in stock. Besides, the QCC coupler is cheaper, and is actually easier to use. Weber dropped them a couple of years ago, and they're very rare today. If you still have that setup, the best thing to do is remove the male Q/D fitting from your grill regulator, install a QCC coupler (about $10), and buy or trade for a QCC/OPD cylinder. You'll have to go to a gas company or LP gas fittings supplier (such as Tempaco) to find the QCC couplers - they are deemed unsafe for just anyone to install, so they aren't found at big box stores. You will need a deep wall socket to install one.
 
   / LP by the gallon, by the pound #15  
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Which leads me to the final tip - avoid the exchange racks if possible. )</font>

Don,

Your probably right on the exchange racks. However I am find less and less companies that will actually fill the tanks anymore. There use to be one within 3 miles but because of insurance reasons they don't anymore. They have an exchange rack now. Right now I would have to drive 10 miles to get to a company that will fill one and then you have to wait for the guy on duty to free up and fill it. The exchange racks are so much more convienient around here. Typically the attending person will let you go out and exchange it yourself so you don't have to wait.

murph
 
   / LP by the gallon, by the pound #16  
Very good information and well explained.
 
   / LP by the gallon, by the pound #17  
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( However I am find less and less companies that will actually fill the tanks anymore....then you have to wait for the guy on duty to free up and fill it...)</font>

Yes, and there's actually one less - I shut down my dispensing operation some months ago and semi-retired, after some drastic personnel changes (my son started a new career, my oldest employee passed away, and another had shoulder surgery). So, this isn't a "plug", but we prided ourselves on getting someone out to refill almost before the customer was out of his car. We had a great reputation and pumped a lot of LP, and even made a little $$$, but I didn't feel like starting over again - good help is too hard to find.

I've heard some towns have even made refilling illegal unless it's at the main gas company plant...even though we were faster, cheaper and more accurate, we lost a ton of business to the exchange racks. Went from getting our 1,000 gallon tank refilled 3 times a week to once...and Blue Rhino came out with a valve that has a magnetic check valve in it, preventing refills. That takes away one of your rights of ownership (choosing how it gets refilled) and if you get one of those, and want it refilled locally, take it back to Blue Rhino and complain bitterly.
 
 
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