Preferred Style Of Tire Chains?

[arrow]

I'm doing the same thing with my DUO's (i.e. reducing gaps) RedNeckRacin. Here's a link to a thread I started about modifying them:

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/attachments/268885-duo-chains-planned-modifications.html

I ordered the eight DUO patterns Monday and they should arrive next week.

EDIT: ADDED THIS AFTER LOOKING AT THE FIRST PHOTO IN THE REFERENCED LINK:

Arrow, the first photo in the referenced thread shows a couple of plain cross chains I added to try to fill in the gap of my DUO's. Although the plain cross chains are sitting on the lugs you can see how they will thread themselves into the lugs once used. However, I agree that if mounting the chains loosely on my tractor was an option they would not fall in the lugs and would be effective.

I dunno Ken, I think you would have gripped just fine with the way you have it. It does not look any different from mine orientation wise and mine grip like King Kong on the Empire State building. Even if they were between lugs, my opinion is that they would still help as the lugs on your type of tire are rather shallow and thus the chain would always make ground contact. To me the proof of the pudding is the tread pattern shown on the ground. I always have "chain indentations" whether it'd be snow or dirt. I think the advantage of the 2 link ladder chains is you would get a bit better ride as you are attempting with additional cross chains. I'm not a fan of duo's because of their spacing and do not think they offer any advantage at all for lugged tires. So why do they exist you ask? I think mostly for customer's concerns rather than actuality. Our skidders had something like duos only on a much bigger scale. They are called ring chains where the rings actually aided traction as the connecting links. Of course lug spacing was large enough where your splayed hand couldn't touch from one lug to another and the ring connectors were 10 inches in diameter. I think tire chains for compact tractors kind of carried this theme over to much smaller tires and this seems irrelevant to me at the compact tractor scale. If mid connectors for tire chains allowed one to ride on the "chain" part all the time, this to me is an effective design. This is the type of design skidder chains are as well as the Nordic type chains for smaller tires.
Good luck with your tire chains and i hope they operate the way you want.
Lou

 

[jgayman]

Whenever discussions of chains come up, there is always talk about chains falling between lugs and becoming what? less effective? Basically I think this is an old wives tale for several reasons. 1. Chains are sometimes put on too tightly. As a result, they cannot "work" themselves into the largest benefit for traction when the tire comes around and the chains meet ground.

Yes, very true. However, your R1 tires appear to have a fair amount of wear on them. The more worn they are the better the chains work. I had an old Ford 9N with very worn R1 tires and my chains worked great for years. I finally got brand new tires and suddenly my chains didn't work nearly as well as the cross chains were down in between those nice new deep cleats.

 

[jgayman]

No offense taken. I don't mind a good discussion with opposing view points delivered as gentlemen; that's how people learn. Now I'm going to oppose you. Here are pictures of same tractor with new tires with not 3 hrs on them.

I suspect tire size and lug design is also a factor. My new 13.6x28 R1 tires had lugs which appear to be much deeper than your new tires and my lugs weren't quite so pitched - a bit more horizontal. As a result, my cross chains disappeared completely between the lugs and only touched the ground now and then. Yours however seem like they would work fine.

 

[arrow]

Yes, very true. However, your R1 tires appear to have a fair amount of wear on them. The more worn they are the better the chains work. I had an old Ford 9N with very worn R1 tires and my chains worked great for years. I finally got brand new tires and suddenly my chains didn't work nearly as well as the cross chains were down in between those nice new deep cleats.

See post no. 29

 

[arrow]

I suspect tire size and lug design is also a factor. My new 13.6x28 R1 tires had lugs which appear to be much deeper than your new tires and my lugs weren't quite so pitched - a bit more horizontal. As a result, my cross chains disappeared completely between the lugs and only touched the ground now and then. Yours however seem like they would work fine.

What type chain? If they're duos, I think you have more of a chance for this to happen than ladder chain especially if the ladders are 2 link. These chains always seem to be able to "cross over " lugs at some point. There seems to be just too big a space between cross links on duos. i think another factor could be the size of the chain diameter itself. Mine at 3/8" are substantial for my tire size. For tires your size perhaps they should make the chain with 7/16th or even half inch links.

 

[kco]

I dunno Ken, I think you would have gripped just fine with the way you have it. It does not look any different from mine orientation wise and mine grip like King Kong on the Empire State building. Even if they were between lugs, my opinion is that they would still help as the lugs on your type of tire are rather shallow and thus the chain would always make ground contact. To me the proof of the pudding is the tread pattern shown on the ground. I always have "chain indentations" whether it'd be snow or dirt. I think the advantage of the 2 link ladder chains is you would get a bit better ride as you are attempting with additional cross chains. I'm not a fan of duo's because of their spacing and do not think they offer any advantage at all for lugged tires. So why do they exist you ask? I think mostly for customer's concerns rather than actuality. Our skidders had something like duos only on a much bigger scale. They are called ring chains where the rings actually aided traction as the connecting links. Of course lug spacing was large enough where your splayed hand couldn't touch from one lug to another and the ring connectors were 10 inches in diameter. I think tire chains for compact tractors kind of carried this theme over to much smaller tires and this seems irrelevant to me at the compact tractor scale. If mid connectors for tire chains allowed one to ride on the "chain" part all the time, this to me is an effective design. This is the type of design skidder chains are as well as the Nordic type chains for smaller tires.
Good luck with your tire chains and i hope they operate the way you want.
Lou

Lou, I did try some very worn, 9/32" 4-link v-bar ladders my neighbour gave me. Here is the photo of those chains:



Although they are on the lugs in the photo, upon use they completely disappeared between the lugs and were ineffective.

I modified those chains to 2-link ladders this year and they are very good for the shallower front tire lugs. Here is a photo:




My DUO chains with regular chain cross links I used to fill the gap are the same diameter as yours--i.e. 3/8". In my previously posted photo showing these newly installed cross links it looked like they would ride over the lugs. But they don't--mostly settle in the lugs. Here are two photos taken today, showing them down in the lugs:





There is very little (non-DUO) chain protruding above the lugs. The photos also show the DUO's do an effective job of keeping chain above the lugs.


I considered 2-link ladder chains before ordering the DUO's. Regular links cost $730 and square link (which I preferred) cost $1,050. My DUO's cost $320. Choices for my 43x16-20 are VERY limited and further complicated by non-adjustable rims and tight horizontal clearance to the fender support.

As you stated, DUO's are rough due to the gap between patterns. I am confident my modification, which eliminates the 2-link gap between DUO patterns (I'm adding 4 patterns to the existing 7 patterns), will mitigate the roughness while further improving traction. And the total cost will be $506 (original $320 + $196 for additional patterns).

I think the best chain for my use would be the Tellefsdal, Aguiline or Trygg patterns mentioned by others in previous posts. Their only disadvantage is the cost.

Cheers

 

[arrow]

Lou, I did try some very worn, 9/32" 4-link v-bar ladders my neighbour gave me. Here is the photo of those chains:

View attachment 300632

Although they are on the lugs in the photo, upon use they completely disappeared between the lugs and were ineffective.
.




My DUO chains with regular chain cross links I used to fill the gap are the same diameter as yours--i.e. 3/8". In my previously posted photo showing these newly installed cross links it looked like they would ride over the lugs. But they don't--mostly settle in the lugs. Here are two photos taken today, showing them down in the lugs:

View attachment 300634

View attachment 300635

There is very little (non-DUO) chain protruding above the lugs. The photos also show the DUO's do an effective job of keeping chain above the lugs.


I considered 2-link ladder chains before ordering the DUO's. Regular links cost $730 and square link (which I preferred) cost $1,050. My DUO's cost $320. Choices for my 43x16-20 are VERY limited and further complicated by non-adjustable rims and tight horizontal clearance to the fender support.

As you stated, DUO's are rough due to the gap between patterns. I am confident my modification, which eliminates the 2-link gap between DUO patterns (I'm adding 4 patterns to the existing 7 patterns), will mitigate the roughness while further improving traction. And the total cost will be $506 (original $320 + $196 for additional patterns).

I think the best chain for my use would be the Tellefsdal, Aguiline or Trygg patterns mentioned by others in previous posts. Their only disadvantage is the cost.

Cheers

Great pictures Ken!. It is most unfortunate you cannot run these without the tensioners as this might solve the traction grip problems. You are right about the limited selection for this tire size. I looked at this when I was about to pull the trigger on a Mahindra 3016. The dealer was willing to swap tires from the 3616 next to it and these were the 43x16's. I went home to look for chains and there was not much selection. When he wanted $500 more for the tractor with these, I balked at the deal so I put new rears on the my old 750 and continued to use my old chains. I was a bit worried with the new tires and these chains but the chains react just as they did on my old set. Mine are loose and traction is excellent with them. I also think the Nordic chains are the best but I think you can manipulate what you have to produce good traction.
I think we are looking for different things traction wise. You are wanting grip on ice so it is important the chain rides proud on your lugs. I'm looking for increased woods traction when logging so my chains always come to bear in this regard. This is a great discussion as it is bringing out all the mostly unspoken details of tire chains for our tractors.

 

[Gordon Gould]

This is a pretty interesting discussion.
To add my way of thinking, and I have no proof of this, when the chains are working hardest they have a lot of force on them. This force will move them to a position where there is less force on them if it can. In this new position they are doing less work because the force on them is less. Once there they will tend to stay because if they move the force gets greater and pushes them back to where they were. Loose chains move easier but are easier on the tires. To make loose chains most effective the design has to be such that the cross links can't hide between the lugs. Loose chains are better in mud because they "shake" them selves out so don't load up as much as tight chains. Just my two cents.

 

[jimainiac]

The great thing about the Trygg chains in the "H" pattern is, besides all those ice studs, the chains form two continuous bands around the diameter of the tire. There is always chain on the ground for grip, and the ride is smooth. In their installation video they show that when the chains are properly adjusted you should be able to pull them away from the tread about a fist's worth. I got mine adjusted like that or just a tad tighter, and it's looking like I don't need tensioners.
I took a test drive in some deep snow and was having some trouble turning, so I borrowed the chains from my pickup for the front tires, four link ladders. I asked my Kubota dealer what he though about chains on all four tires, and he suggested just putting a chain on one front wheel in addition to the rears, and that would help keep the gears from binding up. Anybody ever tried that, or have an opinion?

 

[Gordon Gould]

Chaining up one front tire doesnt make much sense to me but maybe it is a good idea I have never tried it. The dealers are reluctant to say chain fronts because of the relative weakness of the front drive components compared to the rear. If you are slipping and the front catches before the rear it puts a lot of shock on the front drive. With only one chain this wouldn't happen brcause the other side would slip. The one chain would help on ice, helping prevent side to side slipping. But it would be like 2WD because the free tire would get all the power. Not sure about steering in deep snow ?? Might help. I have to use my steering breaks constantly in snow but I realize thats not so easy on an HST tractor.
If you search you will see opinions both ways on chaining up both fronts. I can't recall anyone running one chain. If you try it let us know how it works. It seems there are quite a few that do chain their fronts.