Should I Be Using Overdrive When Towing?

   / Should I Be Using Overdrive When Towing? #31  
HarryVanderpool said:
So far, everyone has left out a very importand part of the equation:
What is your final drive ratio?
My 7.3 PSD has a 4:88 final drive.
I tow 8800# all over Oregon in overdrive.
If i didn't, I would have to push 2500 rpm just to reach 50 mph. :eek:
When I'm on slow windy roads I lock out OD.
Otherwise, its just another gear.
I cruise at 2000 RPM which is 54 mph. (in OD) :p

Isn't it amazing that the trucks today have so much spare HP/torque that you can do that (compared to what we had 20+ years ago). Just think - the 7.3 PSD was an early entrant to the torque wars (with a torque rating of 400 something). The newer trucks have rated torques above 600.
 
   / Should I Be Using Overdrive When Towing? #32  
In my years as a Ford technician (with a degree in Automotive Technology to boot) I have never seen so much misinformation, misconceptions, and downright BS surrounding any automotive subject as I have with the mysterious and majical "overdrive." Transmissions with overdrive have been around in numbers since the late 1970's but a majority of the public still refuses to believe that overdrive is nothing more than another gear ratio available from the transmission. It has nothing to do with special trans fluid, torque converters, or the transmission fairies.

In the old days we had auto transmissions that had three speeds, which were derived from a single planetary gearset. A simple planetary gearset will give you three speeds: A low or first gear, an intermediate or second gear, and direct drive. In first gear the output shaft spins slower than the input shaft, which is driven by the torque converter, due to the gear ratio provided by the planetary set. Thus, first gear is UNDERDRIVEN: Output is slower than input. Second gear is the same, except the ratio is slightly changed to provide more output speed, but it is still UNDERDRIVEN. Now, third gear is different in that the planetary members are locked together and perform no torque multiplication. The output speed of the transmission is exactly the same as the input speed, that is, it is in DIRECT DRIVE. In DIRECT, if the engine is spinning at 3,000 rpm, so is the output shaft of the transmission.

When the need for improved fuel economy became an issue, engineers had to find a way to slow the engine down without reducing normal cruising speeds. This could be accomplished by changing the axle ratio of the vehicle, but this change would also result in much slower acceleration and decreased towing capacity. The final solution was to add an "extra" gear to the transmission, one that would allow the output speed of the transmission to be higher than the input speed. Therefore, the transmission would be OVERDRIVEN. This is where the term "overdrive" comes from: it is simply the mode that the transmission is operating in. Overdrive is accomplished by either adding a second planetary gearset to the trans or by using a "Ravigneaux" gearset (try Google.) This trend continues today as five and six speed automatic transmissions are common, many of which have TWO overdrive speeds.

So, why is there a switch for turning overdrive off? The same gear mechanism that slows the engine down also drastically reduces the amount of torque that can be delivered to the wheels. Under a heavy load at freeway speeds, the engine may not produce enough power to maintain road speed for that gear and will downshift to the next lower gear. The rpms will rise and power increases. As you accelerate up to speed, the transmission or powertrain computer will sense the reduction in throttle as you try to maintain your target speed. Since you are letting off the throttle, the transmission will shift back into top gear (overdrive.) With the engine slowed down again, it won't produce the needed power to maintain speed, so you push farther down on the throttle and the transmission will again downshift to get the engine back up to speed. This upshift/downshift cycle continues and each shift builds up heat due to friction in the trans. Heat is bad for a transmission so to prevent these damaging shifts engineers give us a way to lockout overdrive either by a switch or a separate gearshift position. Of course, this makes the engine rev much higher and your fuel mileage will plummet.

You'll notice nowhere above is there any mention of the torque converter. Why? Overdrive has nothing to do with a lock-up torque converter. As a matter of fact, Ford's first major overdrive transmission put into production, the AOD (Automatic OverDrive,) didn't even HAVE a lock-up torque converter. Ford's prolific Super Duty trucks with the 7.3L have a four-speed auto with fourth-gear overdrive but will lock their torque converter in second, third, and fourth gear.

The simple fact is that unless your transmission is "hunting" for gears (repeatedly shifting up and down while trying to maintain a set speed) there is no reason to turn off or lock out overdrive, regardless if you are towing or not. I have yet to see an owner's manual that fails to explain this in this manner.

So please, before perpetuating the "Freemason's guide to the secret Overdrive" do a little research and find out how overdrive works from a shop manual and help me put an end to overdrive slander.

Jay
 
   / Should I Be Using Overdrive When Towing? #33  
Lets not forget the temperature gauges that give a good indication of what is happening with the turbo, transmission and the engine. Many who tow regularly have added these if they did not come with the vehicle.:D :D :D

I don't have them but I would like them.:D
 
   / Should I Be Using Overdrive When Towing? #34  
JD4610 said:
In my years as a Ford technician (with a degree in Automotive Technology to boot) I have never seen so much misinformation, misconceptions, and downright BS surrounding any automotive subject as I have with the mysterious and majical "overdrive." Transmissions with overdrive have been around in numbers since the late 1970's but a majority of the public still refuses to believe that overdrive is nothing more than another gear ratio available from the transmission. It has nothing to do with special trans fluid, torque converters, or the transmission fairies.

In the old days we had auto transmissions that had three speeds, which were derived from a single planetary gearset. A simple planetary gearset will give you three speeds: A low or first gear, an intermediate or second gear, and direct drive. In first gear the output shaft spins slower than the input shaft, which is driven by the torque converter, due to the gear ratio provided by the planetary set. Thus, first gear is UNDERDRIVEN: Output is slower than input. Second gear is the same, except the ratio is slightly changed to provide more output speed, but it is still UNDERDRIVEN. Now, third gear is different in that the planetary members are locked together and perform no torque multiplication. The output speed of the transmission is exactly the same as the input speed, that is, it is in DIRECT DRIVE. In DIRECT, if the engine is spinning at 3,000 rpm, so is the output shaft of the transmission.

When the need for improved fuel economy became an issue, engineers had to find a way to slow the engine down without reducing normal cruising speeds. This could be accomplished by changing the axle ratio of the vehicle, but this change would also result in much slower acceleration and decreased towing capacity. The final solution was to add an "extra" gear to the transmission, one that would allow the output speed of the transmission to be higher than the input speed. Therefore, the transmission would be OVERDRIVEN. This is where the term "overdrive" comes from: it is simply the mode that the transmission is operating in. Overdrive is accomplished by either adding a second planetary gearset to the trans or by using a "Ravigneaux" gearset (try Google.) This trend continues today as five and six speed automatic transmissions are common, many of which have TWO overdrive speeds.

So, why is there a switch for turning overdrive off? The same gear mechanism that slows the engine down also drastically reduces the amount of torque that can be delivered to the wheels. Under a heavy load at freeway speeds, the engine may not produce enough power to maintain road speed for that gear and will downshift to the next lower gear. The rpms will rise and power increases. As you accelerate up to speed, the transmission or powertrain computer will sense the reduction in throttle as you try to maintain your target speed. Since you are letting off the throttle, the transmission will shift back into top gear (overdrive.) With the engine slowed down again, it won't produce the needed power to maintain speed, so you push farther down on the throttle and the transmission will again downshift to get the engine back up to speed. This upshift/downshift cycle continues and each shift builds up heat due to friction in the trans. Heat is bad for a transmission so to prevent these damaging shifts engineers give us a way to lockout overdrive either by a switch or a separate gearshift position. Of course, this makes the engine rev much higher and your fuel mileage will plummet.

You'll notice nowhere above is there any mention of the torque converter. Why? Overdrive has nothing to do with a lock-up torque converter. As a matter of fact, Ford's first major overdrive transmission put into production, the AOD (Automatic OverDrive,) didn't even HAVE a lock-up torque converter. Ford's prolific Super Duty trucks with the 7.3L have a four-speed auto with fourth-gear overdrive but will lock their torque converter in second, third, and fourth gear.

The simple fact is that unless your transmission is "hunting" for gears (repeatedly shifting up and down while trying to maintain a set speed) there is no reason to turn off or lock out overdrive, regardless if you are towing or not. I have yet to see an owner's manual that fails to explain this in this manner.

So please, before perpetuating the "Freemason's guide to the secret Overdrive" do a little research and find out how overdrive works from a shop manual and help me put an end to overdrive slander.

Jay

JD4610, I'm not disagreeing with you here, like I said before I'm no expert. Although transmissions are not my speacialty I do recall on several occasions while testing many ford trucks one of the diagnostic procedures was to drive the vehicle around 40mph(not exactly sure on speed) and cycle the overdrive switch, cylce again, and very lightly tap the brakes(enough to cycle the brake switch). Then watch the rpms to see that they go up around 200 rpm both times. This was to test the lockup converter on the 4R70W AOD if I recall correctly. The reason you do this at 40mph(or lower, don't recall exactly), is because if you were going faster it would downshift the trans into a lower gear(cycling the switch). Like I said, not disagreeing with you on the higher gear reaching a ratio of close to 1:1, but the only gear you don't want the converter to lock in is 1st(would cause engine to stall when stopped) but having the converter unlocked all the time would cause excessive heat buildup in the converter. Now, a little more detailed than my last description-the torque converter will still lock up even when OD is cycled off, but dissengages on lighter throttle application. This could be mistaken for a downshift but really isn't at low speeds. Now at highway speeds it will leave the vehicle in third gear as opposed to 4th and this is where the fuel mileage really suffers. Not just from the converter unlocked.

I totally agree with you about the gear hunting back and forth, and the converter fairy but as a proffesional I would appreciate it if you correct me if I'm wrong on the other stuff. Ain't too proud to admit when I'm wrong, and would rather be corrected than assume I'm right. Besides, we all know what "ASSUME" is when it's broken down:D:D.
 
   / Should I Be Using Overdrive When Towing? #35  
With a 2 ton load, i try to keep my TDI at 2000 rpm in 5th gear (overdrive) because that's where it has enough torque to get over a hill or so. at 80 km/h (legal towing speed in Holland) it does only 1500 rpm which is too low in the torque band to tow. I like to tow at 110 km/h anyways.

This 2.5 TDI has enough torque, and is sturdy enough to be working at 80% of power for extended periods of time. If i chipped it to 220 hp i'd rather not use all that power when towing, but at factory standard 140 hp its relatively safe to just use what its got.

If i had a gasser, i'd probably tow in 4th gear because of the different torque band... or do the gasser 850's have different gear ratios anyways ?? ;)
 
   / Should I Be Using Overdrive When Towing? #36  
>>>"Freemason's guide to the secret Overdrive"<<<

JD4610, now that was really funny!!:D

Like I said; Overdrive is just another gear.
 
   / Should I Be Using Overdrive When Towing? #37  
Hey Matt, that wasn't specifically directed at you, sorry if it sounded that way. It was pretty late when I typed that.

My specialty was/is EEC systems, gas, diesel, and hybrid. There are so many possibilities with the software/hardware that we have today that it is always hard to keep things in focus. With a simple change to the software, engineers can completely change the character of an engine and trans, as we've seen through the history of the 7.3L and 6.0L. These changes aren't always for the better, and I've dealt with many customer complaints after upgrading to "improved" software from the factory.

I guess my advice, for what it's worth, is to take care of the trans by avoiding "hunting" for gears, keep the trans fluid fresh ( I change mine every 20k miles,) and to keep the trans cool by not hammering on it at low speeds, especially while towing or off road. I would also highly recommend a trans temp gauge for anyone that tows with their truck.

Jay
 
   / Should I Be Using Overdrive When Towing? #38  
VA_Joe said:
Isn't it amazing that the trucks today have so much spare HP/torque that you can do that (compared to what we had 20+ years ago). Just think - the 7.3 PSD was an early entrant to the torque wars (with a torque rating of 400 something). The newer trucks have rated torques above 600.

Compared to some other newer rigs, the stock 7.3 is a dog.
But, thats what I have and thats what I'm going to have for a long time.
Theres 175000 miles on the clock right now. (stock original tranny)
When it finally conks out, I will install one of them custom beefy trannys so that maybe I CAN bump the horses up a teensy-weensy bit.
The low gear ratios and 4WD really make crawling around in fields a breeze.
Here's a pic of my rig with 88 bee hives on back:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v202/Shallotman/DSC00473.jpg
 
   / Should I Be Using Overdrive When Towing? #39  
HarryVanderpool ... I sure would hate to bump into that load .... :)
Leo
 
   / Should I Be Using Overdrive When Towing? #40  
HarryVanderpool said:
Compared to some other newer rigs, the stock 7.3 is a dog.
But, thats what I have and thats what I'm going to have for a long time.
Theres 175000 miles on the clock right now. (stock original tranny)
When it finally conks out, I will install one of them custom beefy trannys so that maybe I CAN bump the horses up a teensy-weensy bit.
The low gear ratios and 4WD really make crawling around in fields a breeze.
Here's a pic of my rig with 88 bee hives on back:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v202/Shallotman/DSC00473.jpg

And compared to what came before the 7.3 PSD it is a superstar. It's a proven engine that will last a very long time (with more than enough performance to meet most demands). With the newer engines and their stratospheric torque ratings - only time will tell (both Ford and Chevy had their share of growing pains when first released).

Joe
 
 
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