New diesels and emissions. A bad thing?

   / New diesels and emissions. A bad thing? #51  
Remains to be seen if the Extra Profit Overlords will allow this DuroTorq into USA/Canada.

New Ford Transit and Transit Connect Debut - PickupTrucks.com News

That era of diesel has had great field tests (non Ford performed) in Asia.

Would be really nice to have a diesel van choice here, instead of just Mercedes.

Rgds, D.
There will be plenty of choices soon. RAM announced their work van too.
http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2013/02/first-look-2014-ram-promaster-work-van.html
I'll be the first to say it's ugly but with the awesome Pentastar V6 or a 3.0l diesel and over 5I lbs of payload and towing capacity, it will be useful.
 
   / New diesels and emissions. A bad thing? #52  
   / New diesels and emissions. A bad thing? #53  
Would it? I can tell you for a fact that for $10k you are not going to find a reliable truck you can use for a business. If it was just simply buying a truck that can haul your tools and supplies then life would be easy. But when you're truck is your lifeblood to your business you can't afford to spend $10k on 15 year old truck and have it not start in the morning. Also when you drive up to a job for the first time the shape of your vehicle is the first impression people make on how trustworthy you are.

Some friends of mine do cement work. All they do is finish floors. Several cement contractors subcontract out the basement floors to them. After pouring the footing and the walls they call these brothers in to do the floor. They drive a 1 ton box truck that they have to have the rear springs beefed up to hold all of their equipment. Every two years they replace it, usually they've put more than 100k on it. Because they often haul a trailer load of rebar they always get a diesel. They have been doing this for decades. Through experience they found out that one lost day quickly cascades into major problems. First if a schedule others are also following looses a day because you didn't show up then they just lost a day too. Nothing turns your business's name into mud that failing to show up. Second if you have to go to a job a day late because a contractor is screaming at you for impacting their job you now have to figure out how you are going to do yesterday's work and today's work in one day. It's not a big deal as long as you were planning on being at the same job both days but if you have another job lined up that's a real problem.

It's real easy to say that 1 tons diesel are bought by rich white guys and the hardest they will ever get worked is to pick up a loaf of bread but the fact is there are lots of people who buy them because they are just as important as any other tool they own.

I couldn't agree more with this comment. Same holds true for any piece of equipment that is being used in business.
 
   / New diesels and emissions. A bad thing? #54  
What about a welder who owns his/ her own business and needs a diesel to haul their welder and steel to jobs? Diesel trucks are not bought just by rich folks who want to feel like a trucker.

To each his own, but if I was in that spot I couldn't justify spending $50,000 when a $5,000 or $10,000 truck, paid for with cash, would accomplish the task. Its not like the truck is going to improve the weld quality.

Would it? I can tell you for a fact that for $10k you are not going to find a reliable truck you can use for a business. If it was just simply buying a truck that can haul your tools and supplies then life would be easy. But when you're truck is your lifeblood to your business you can't afford to spend $10k on 15 year old truck and have it not start in the morning. Also when you drive up to a job for the first time the shape of your vehicle is the first impression people make on how trustworthy you are.

Some friends of mine do cement work. All they do is finish floors. Several cement contractors subcontract out the basement floors to them. After pouring the footing and the walls they call these brothers in to do the floor. They drive a 1 ton box truck that they have to have the rear springs beefed up to hold all of their equipment. Every two years they replace it, usually they've put more than 100k on it. Because they often haul a trailer load of rebar they always get a diesel. They have been doing this for decades. Through experience they found out that one lost day quickly cascades into major problems. First if a schedule others are also following looses a day because you didn't show up then they just lost a day too. Nothing turns your business's name into mud that failing to show up. Second if you have to go to a job a day late because a contractor is screaming at you for impacting their job you now have to figure out how you are going to do yesterday's work and today's work in one day. It's not a big deal as long as you were planning on being at the same job both days but if you have another job lined up that's a real problem.

It's real easy to say that 1 tons diesel are bought by rich white guys and the hardest they will ever get worked is to pick up a loaf of bread but the fact is there are lots of people who buy them because they are just as important as any other tool they own.

Just because you have an older truck doesn't mean it has to be a junker. There are a couple different contractors around here who have several older trucks (even as far back at 60's-70's vintage) and they have a pretty good name in the community and stay plenty busy. Granted, these trucks have been nicely painted, have nice 'vintage' lettering on the side, always kept clean and I'm sure they are in excellent mechanical shape. These trucks range in size from pickups to tandem dumps. In some regards I think people get a better first impression by such a setup than the guy that goes out an buys a new truck every couple years and runs it in the ground.

In all honesty, I think this might be the direction I'll have to go with my business. As far as trucks built for work go, Detroit is really going backwards IMO. Now almost every model is full of computer screens, navigation, frivolous electronic crap, no more manual transmissions, poor fuel economy/reliability, huge and awkward body styles, and the list goes on. For $50K I could buy three used trucks, pull them in my shop and rebuild them top to bottom.

As for your last statement, in the 80's and 90's that was 100% true and I'd agree completely. Once the horsepower wars started in the diesel pickups they became a 'hot rod' and status symbol to many people and lost many of their good work truck attributes.
 
   / New diesels and emissions. A bad thing? #55  
Just because you have an older truck doesn't mean it has to be a junker. There are a couple different contractors around here who have several older trucks (even as far back at 60's-70's vintage) and they have a pretty good name in the community and stay plenty busy. Granted, these trucks have been nicely painted, have nice 'vintage' lettering on the side, always kept clean and I'm sure they are in excellent mechanical shape. These trucks range in size from pickups to tandem dumps. In some regards I think people get a better first impression by such a setup than the guy that goes out an buys a new truck every couple years and runs it in the ground.

In all honesty, I think this might be the direction I'll have to go with my business. As far as trucks built for work go, Detroit is really going backwards IMO. Now almost every model is full of computer screens, navigation, frivolous electronic crap, no more manual transmissions, poor fuel economy/reliability, huge and awkward body styles, and the list goes on. For $50K I could buy three used trucks, pull them in my shop and rebuild them top to bottom.

As for your last statement, in the 80's and 90's that was 100% true and I'd agree completely. Once the horsepower wars started in the diesel pickups they became a 'hot rod' and status symbol to many people and lost many of their good work truck attributes.

I'm far more impressed with somebody maintaining an old vehicle in good shape, than somebody driving a less than 2 year old vehicle - the minimum (typical) effort the new one takes is only a willingness to go into debt. A concrete contractor driving 100k+/year should have plenty of cash flow, to do whatever he wants - his choice. Agreed, not every 1 ton buyer is a poser - some of these trucks are worked for real.

New - more reliable - debatable. Without getting into brand names..... seen one line of recent p/u's that is basically "Check the oil, and change the front end". Another brand, cylinder deactivation era, goes through enough motor oil that I jokingly refer to 2 stroke technology being quietly re-introduced. Both symptoms on both trucks are widely known in the trade.

In any type of equipment, complexity tends to reduce lifespan. Many otherwise solid vehicles get scrapped because few people want to put $1000+ into replacing an electronic control module. Governments and obviously car companies are more than fine with that, and many consumers never look at the numbers past what the monthly payment is.

I do actually like appropriate applications of technology. The Prius is an impressive piece of tech, but it won't save the world, and it has been over-hyped. Totally agree with one post here, few people understand what has gone into manufacturing a Prius, let alone something basic like Embodied Energy in all products.

People also tend to forget about things like intended use. Talked to a lady last year, who drove a Prius from Calgary to Ottawa, towing a small trailer. Got 18L/100km (13 mpg US). I could haul a much larger 10,000# trailer with my 7.3, and still do better than that. Like many, I got a good laugh when Al Gore's son got that hefty highway speeding ticket, driving his Prius ! :laughing:

I'm actually for appropriate energy conservation, where it makes sense..... BUT, you can't get away from some pretty simple Fizx....... it takes Energy to accomplish Work.

Rgds, D.
 
   / New diesels and emissions. A bad thing?
  • Thread Starter
#56  
Where I work we deal with the EPA all the time. I work for a civil engineering company, and we deal with them for drinking water, storm water, and wastewater quality. Everyone can maybe remember how poor the quality of some of the rivers used to be from pollution. There is no doubt all these regs have greatly increased the quality of our waterways and lakes. But like diesel emissions, we often are left wondering if we haven't passed the point of diminishing returns.
 
   / New diesels and emissions. A bad thing? #57  
Where I work we deal with the EPA all the time. I work for a civil engineering company, and we deal with them for drinking water, storm water, and wastewater quality. Everyone can maybe remember how poor the quality of some of the rivers used to be from pollution. There is no doubt all these regs have greatly increased the quality of our waterways and lakes. But like diesel emissions, we often are left wondering if we haven't passed the point of diminishing returns.

A fair and balanced comment. I too understand the challenge of attaining that last 0.0000001 %, ya gotta wonder !

I like clean air and water. That is a separate topic, distinct from overgrown and out of control bureaucracy.

Rgds, D.
 
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   / New diesels and emissions. A bad thing? #58  
Ok. innovation is always good, but how does that affect the cost? Btw, I con't see most diesels on the road as being needed. I used to haul a tractor and implements around, and the cost of a diesel never penciled out. With the gassers getting as much as 350K on a engine, longevity isn't much of a factor anymore either.

Many would argue with your "needed" comment. If I was a contractor towing a bobcat everyday, yeah it would be needed. How does innovation affect the cost? ...Bigtime. Once someone figures out the GOOD way to reduce diesel emissions it will be a huge cost saver for everyone. The Cat was expensive at first, until it became standard an then it was engineered to do what it needed to do at minimal cost. Then of course the EPA decided that that wasn't good enough so they raised the standards... Never ends...
 
   / New diesels and emissions. A bad thing? #59  
I find it interesting that the Fiat/Ram ProMaster van is front wheel drive.
 
   / New diesels and emissions. A bad thing? #60  
I find it interesting that the Fiat/Ram ProMaster van is front wheel drive.
AWD certainly would be nice but I'll take a FWD van over a RWD van any day in slippery conditions whether it's mud, snow, or even rain. An empty RWD Cargo van can't get out of it's own way when the going gets tough. Our FWD Dodge Grand Caravan C/V's are MUCH better in the snow than the full size cargo vans.

Plus the lack of a rear drivetrain means lower floors and easier maintenance. No long driveshaft means a smoother ride too.
 
 
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