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  1. #21
    Veteran Member
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    Dec 2007
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    2,496
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    Ontario, Canada
    Tractor
    Ford 3930

    Default Re: legal tow?

    Quote Originally Posted by deerfarmer4life View Post
    the truck is a single rear wheel. as stated i have a cdl.

    i cant find a straight answer on to what is actually legal with the truck.sure it will hook up and move 40,000 lbs but is it legal?

    I've been told you just can't over load the axle ratings and then I have been told you can't exceed the gcwr of the vehicle. The gcwr of the vehicle isn't on the truck anywhere so unless the leos have a book with this on file how can they check?

    My 32 ft pj gooseneck is rated for 24,500 but is tagged for 21,000. I can position my load to limit the amount of tongue weight on the truck so that is why I'm asking.

    I guess I will have to find a Leo to ask.
    Don't expect the average LEO to know - well, at least I wouldn't bet a big fine on it. In many jurisdictions, the towing regs/enforcement have become pretty convoluted.

    Start with your state Motor Vehicle office, you may need to talk with an inspector to get a real answer. Crossing into another state may likely mean a different set of rules too.

    Around here (Ontario, Canada), with or without a CDL, you may need to (if not for legal reasons, just to avoid being hassled my MTO inspectors) get your 1 ton truck Yellow Stickered (aka Annual mechanical Inspection).

    I've met guys here who just drive their 1 ton (honestly) as a personal vehicle, and ONLY pull their own 5th wheel RV trailer with it - they do zero commercial work. Older guys like this, will voluntarily get their 1 tons Yellow Stickered, mostly just to avoid the blood pressure increase due to being pulled over when trying to take a vacation trip.

    Yes - mostly this problem (for the recreational user) here has been created by hotshoters, and other Commercial users. A mechanic buddy of mine had been warning a long term customer for years, he finally got nailed (no Yellow Sticker) for what was clearly Commercial Use (permanent lettering on the side of the truck was the first clue..... ). Fines ran into the thousands of dollars. No, my buddy didn't make the call. Yes, we have lots of Green Bears (MTO inspectors) anywhere near Toronto. They can and will run with mobile scale setups, and have access to vehicle specs via computer - YMMV depending where you are, but the Transport Inspectors around here are not easily fooled.

    Regardless of where you are (OK, assuming any kind of developed world traffic enforcement), towing beyond the GCWR will probably leave you open to fines or impoundment. The worst case situation is insurance though; I wouldn't bet on an insurer paying up, if you are seriously over the GCWR - at fault accident or not.

    Nothing against LEOs, but I'd get the straight answers (and preferably State issued information that you can carry in the truck, in case you are pulled over by a LEO that doesn't know the rules inside out) from your State Motor Vehicle Dept. Depending where you are, that might require a trip to a big License center. 95% of what we have here now are just contracted out public/private offices; I wouldn't trust the info I'd get there on an issue like this.

    Good luck, haul safe.

    Rgds, D.

  2. #22
    Elite Member George2615's Avatar
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    Feb 2005
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    3,176
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    Central Square, NY
    Tractor
    LS XR3037HC

    Default Re: legal tow?

    I did a search for a 2001 F350 owners manual. It brought me to a ford site that lists the max GCWR at 20,000. On page 15 of the diesel supplement book in pdf it says for a fifth wheel trailer subtract the GVW from the GCWR. So an example would be 20,000 minus the weight of the truck (say 5000) = the maximum fifth wheel trailer weight or 15,000.
    Attached Files Attached Files

  3. #23
    Silver Member
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    Feb 2008
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    199

    Default Re: legal tow?

    IMO asking a LEO is good idea however not all leo's have been to size and weights school. In my state its a 6 month schooling program plus xxx in service hours before he is road ready.

    My local state highway patrol troop commanders usually can't answer some of my licensing or weights question BUT always has a land line to a certified size and weights officer assigned to his troop. Drop by your local troop post if handy. If they can't answer they can get you in touch with someone that knows the answers.

  4. #24
    Elite Member schmism's Avatar
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    Jul 2006
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    4,829
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    Peoria IL
    Tractor
    New holland TC(33)

    Default Re: legal tow?

    state of IL requires you have a class of license to match the weight of the tow vehicle + any trailer. CDL is separate depending on commercial business use

    For instance i hold a Class B non-CDL for when i drive the Dept Fire truck.

    State of IL also has exemptions on class requirement if your
    1) farm
    2) moving your contents of your home (aka moving van)
    3) RV

    Its my understanding that even if you drive a normal E350 type van. If you do it as a business you need a CDL. (or chauffeur license if you drive people in cars)
    Steve - TC33D 4x4 FEL, dual rear remotes with toys

  5. #25
    EdK
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    Silver Member EdK's Avatar
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    Apr 2002
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    Central NH
    Tractor
    Kubota M6800, Case 580E Super

    Default Re: legal tow?

    Quote Originally Posted by George2615 View Post
    I did a search for a 2001 F350 owners manual. It brought me to a ford site that lists the max GCWR at 20,000. On page 15 of the diesel supplement book in pdf it says for a fifth wheel trailer subtract the GVW from the GCWR. So an example would be 20,000 minus the weight of the truck (say 5000) = the maximum fifth wheel trailer weight or 15,000.
    Here is a problem I've run into using "GCWR" as the letter of the law:

    GCWR=GVWRtruck + GVWRtrailer so GVWRtrailer = GCWR - GVWRtruck

    If GCWR = 20,000 and GVWRtruck = 9900 then GVWRtrailer = 10100

    For an example, PJ specs their 32' flatbed as weighing 7320lbs(PJ Trailers - Classic Flatdeck with Duals (FD)). So if the OP were to never exceed GCWR then the SRW F350 must tow a trailer with a registered GVWR of no more than 10100. Register that PJ as such and its' payload would be limited to 10100-7320=2780lbs!

    This is why I posed the question earlier in the thread concerning CDL holding/DOT compliant truckers exceeding manufacturers' GCWR on a regular basis under the scrutiny of law enforcement all over the country.

  6. #26
    Elite Member
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    Knoxville, TN
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    Bobcat CT225

    Default Re: legal tow?

    Quote Originally Posted by EdK View Post
    Here is a problem I've run into using "GCWR" as the letter of the law:
    GCWR=GVWRtruck + GVWRtrailer so GVWRtrailer = GCWR - GVWRtruck
    If GCWR = 20,000 and GVWRtruck = 9900 then GVWRtrailer = 10100
    I don't think you're right there. The GCWR is the maximum combined actual weight of truck + trailer, not the sum of the truck and trailer's GVWR. My 2007 Dodge Ram 2500 has the following specs:

    GCWR: 20k
    GVWR: 9k
    Max Tow Rating: 13k

    If you do the math, you'll see that the sum of the GVWR and the Max Tow Rating exceeds the GCWR. All that means is that I can't both fully load the truck and tow at the max rating. The truck's scale weight is about 7k, so in reality, I can tow the full 13k without exceeding the GCWR, as long as I don't have any cargo in the bed.

    Nowhere in here does the trailer's GVWR come into play. If I had a trailer that weighed 10,000 lbs, with a GVWR of 36,000 lbs, I would be fine to tow that trailer behind my truck. If the trailer was empty, my total weight would be 17,000 lbs, which is less than my GCWR; I'm fine. I could even put up to 3,000 lbs of cargo on the trailer.

    In short, I believe the actual formula is:

    Truck scale weight + Trailer scale weight <= GCWR
    AND Trailer scale weight <= Trailer GVWR
    AND Truck scale weight <= Truck GVWR
    AND no individual axle rating exceeded
    AND Trailer scale weight <= Truck's tow rating (including specs of hitch, ball, etc...)

  7. #27
    Elite Member Duffster's Avatar
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    Wisconsin

    Default Re: legal tow?

    Quote Originally Posted by George2615 View Post
    Here is an excerpt from the NYSDMV law pertaining to regular drivers licenses. No matter what the driven and tow vehicles each weigh the GCWR cannot be more than 26,000 lb.
    Actually that is not what it says. If you'd read it again and do the math the GCWR could be as high as 36k with the "D".
    "If everyone is thinking alike, someone isn't thinking." George Patton

  8. #28
    EdK
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    Silver Member EdK's Avatar
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    Apr 2002
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    Central NH
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    Kubota M6800, Case 580E Super

    Default Re: legal tow?

    Quote Originally Posted by joshuabardwell View Post
    I don't think you're right there. The GCWR is the maximum combined actual weight of truck + trailer, not the sum of the truck and trailer's GVWR.
    After some further study of DOT's GCWR definition I stand corrected. However it would appear that the OP is going to come in at around 21,000(payload)+7,320(trailer)+6,000(approx F-350)=34,320. That's still 14,320 over GCWR.

  9. #29
    Gold Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
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    322
    Location
    St. Louis MO
    Tractor
    BX1500

    Default Re: legal tow?

    Here's a breakdown based on my 2002 Ford F250 Supercab W/ 3.73 gears and 7.3 Power Stroke and my bumper pull 16' tandem axle flat bed trailer. This was compiled from the Ford 02 diesel supplement and the Ford 02 RV and trailer towing guide.

    Gross Vehicle Weight (GVW)
    The weight of the vehicle plus all the cargo in it. This is measured by putting a fully loaded vehicle on a scale. Should never exceed gross vehicle weight rating.
    7200# (normal weight with me and a full tank)

    Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR)
    Maximum allowable weight of the vehicle and its cargo as defined by vehicle manufacturer.
    8800# (Ford spec)

    Gross Trailer Weight (GTW)
    The weight of the trailer plus all the cargo on it. This is measured by putting a fully loaded trailer on a scale. Should never exceed gross trailer weight rating.
    3200# Trailer and Kubota BX1500 w/ FEL, MMM, weight box

    Gross Trailer Weight Rating (GTWR)
    Maximum allowable weight of the trailer and its cargo as defined by trailer manufacturer.
    7000# (Empty trailer weight = 1200# so the max load I can haul on it is 5800#)

    Gross Combined Weight (GCW)
    The sum of GVW and GTW. Should never exceed gross combined weight rating.
    10,400# (truck and trailer loaded with Kubota)

    Gross Combined Weight Rating (GCWR)
    The maximum combined weight of the vehicle and trailer as defined by the vehicle manufacturer.
    20,000# (Ford spec)

    Maximum trailer Weight
    Conventional/Class IV trailer hitch
    12,500# (Ford spec)
    Fifth wheel trailer
    13,300# (Ford Spec)


    Gross Axel Weight Rating) (GAWR)
    The maximum allowable weight on any axle as defined by the vehicle or trailer/axle manufacturer.
    GAWR Truck - Front: 5200# Rear: 6084# Trailer - 3500# each
    Keith
    BX1500 - FEL - 54" MMM
    02 F250 SD 4X4 supercab 7.3 PS

  10. #30
    Elite Member George2615's Avatar
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    Central Square, NY
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    LS XR3037HC

    Default Re: legal tow?

    Quote Originally Posted by Duffster View Post
    Actually that is not what it says. If you'd read it again and do the math the GCWR could be as high as 36k with the "D".
    I'm not going to debate how anyone interprets what I posted. The last sentence says it all that the GCWR of both vehicles must be under 26K for a class D operator. You can't add a 26K truck and a 10K trailer together. I know what I read and how it is worded. I also know how my state interprets the law. The OP has a CDL. I'm glad the OP is in Mn so I don't have to be in front of him when he's towing 21K on a 24K goose neck with a 1T truck. I don't doubt the truck will pull the load. I'm just saying he's not legal to do so in NY whether he has a CDL or not. He'd need a bigger truck.
    If he or anyone else comes to NY with that kind of load they should be prepared to pay the fine when they are pulled over or go into a weigh station. Been there, done that and it cost dearly even after fighting in court.

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