'12-'13 injection pump failures?

[AKfish]

After 135,000 miles I finally had to have the injectors replaced on my '03 Dmax. Outside of having to replace a rear axle seal (and brake pads) that's all I've ever had to do with that truck - besides oil-filter-air maintenance.

Last count was 7 round-trips on the Alcan towing some heavy loads and it never burped or hiccupped once.

But, I'm edging closer to buying a new rig.

Lead mechanic on the north slope oil fields did the repair work (mostly Dmax'es up there) and I took the opportunity to pick his brain on the new trucks (1-ton and up). His advice - wait.... he stated that one of the biggest problems they're having right now with ALL of the new rigs is injection pump's cratering. Literally. Lines, injectors, filters contaminated with metal particles after the pump fails. Complete fuel system replacement is required. Around $7-8K he guessed.

Dodge's, Ford's, GM. His view is that the high pressure injection pumps (~30K psi - thought that most of them were Bosch) were defective or needing a redesign to effectively function at the higher operating pressures were the root of the problem.

Is this a pervasive; across-the-board failure for '12-'13 diesel trucks?

Thanks.

AKfish

 

[JasG]

I've heard of both Ford and Chevy having injection issues, don't know about Dodge which I believe has been using it's system (or something close) since 2003 or 4. I know of 2 local village diesels one Chevy and one Ford that are only a year or so old that have had issues and it was blamed on bad fuel.

A local injection shop I deal with did say the since the newest fuel came out they have seen damage that looks like water. From what they have looked into it the newest fuel may have water homogenized into it so it never drops out. They said it was from what ever process is used to remove the sulfur.

Around here Chevy is having problems with the SCR system also. A local Chevy dealer has taken a bunch back in trade due to the DEF is freezing below 20F and the heater isn't heating it the fluid enough to thaw is what I was told.

Dodge with the Cummins I have heard of poor fuel mileage and I have read problems with the EGR system over 50K miles. I also know of people who have owned these and had problems.

The way the EPA and CARB keep changing the rules and standards and what can and can not be used. It might be a while before anyone works the bugs out of the newer diesel motors. Just one more example, Navistar right now is having problems using a system they bought from the EPA.

 

[Lt CHEG]

The CP3 injection pumps found in the current Cummins as well as the LMM ('08-'10) DMaxes have actually been pretty reliable even with their high pressures. The CP4 injection pump in the '11 and up LML DMaxes and the 6.7 Powerstrokes have been more finicky. They do NOT handle any water contamination. If the fuel filters are changed regularly it hasn't been a problem in the DMaxes but there are grumblings at a few Powerstroke related forums about the adequacy of Ford's fuel filter water separator system. There is talk of another class action suit against Ford as they have been denying a lot of warranty claims in the new 6.7 Powerstrokes due to grenaded CP4 injection pumps which have been contaminated with water. The trick to a healthy fuel system on all of these new diesels is religiously changing fuel filters even before manufacturers recommend doing so and in upgrading fuel filtration, water separation equipment.

 

[Code54]

As LtCHEG said "The trick to a healthy fuel system on all of these new diesels is religiously changing fuel filters even before manufacturers recommend doing so and in upgrading fuel filtration, water separation equipment." I know the RAM offers a HD fuel filter system that is supposed to be an excellent upgrade to protect the fuel system if you have concerns.
I have not heard much about problems with the injector pump on the Cummins but the fuel mileage sure is nothing to write home about! As for the EGR systems it seems a lot of the problems are caused by not doing the proper maintenance - it seems the new ones do have more to maintain and if it is not followed far more problems can arise.

 

[AKfish]

As LtCHEG said "The trick to a healthy fuel system on all of these new diesels is religiously changing fuel filters even before manufacturers recommend doing so and in upgrading fuel filtration, water separation equipment." I know the RAM offers a HD fuel filter system that is supposed to be an excellent upgrade to protect the fuel system if you have concerns.
I have not heard much about problems with the injector pump on the Cummins but the fuel mileage sure is nothing to write home about! As for the EGR systems it seems a lot of the problems are caused by not doing the proper maintenance - it seems the new ones do have more to maintain and if it is not followed far more problems can arise.

Ok... "before the manufacturer's recommend interval" how often is that exactly?? I believe that GM recommended 15K on the fuel filter for my '03 Dmax. 10k on the new trucks? Along this line, one of the diesel truck forums that I did some research on before replacing the injectors on my Dmax listed several different vendors that provided retro filter kits with OEM Caterpillar 2 micron filter setups.

Is that something that folk's with the latest generation of diesel trucks should pursue? I gotta admit - $50K or $60K for a new truck and it needs to be modded out - how frustrating can you get??

And this "Blue DEF" stuff? The oil field mechanic stated they have to leave their trucks either 1.) running 24/7 or 2.) in a heated building. The ammonia freezes - he stated at anything below 32F! Just beautiful..

AKfish

 

[Code54]

How offen would depend on the fuel you are running. I mostly change mine every 10K (Fuel), and oil at 5K, the oil change indicator never is on yet however. I just rather spend a little extra on maintenance than deal with any possible problems. Others follow the schedules and are fine, I am a little over cautious perhaps.

As for adding the extra filters, again, you don't need to, lots of people are getting 100"s of thousands of miles without issues but if you ever get questionable fuel it is an advantage. (They call it an extreme duty kit or something like that) I want to keep my truck for a long time so I may put the kit on and it may or not help - guess it is anyones guess but it does afford a little extra protection.

As for the DEF - it really is not as big of a deal as many people are making it out to be. The new trucks have heaters built into the tank to de-freeze it if the tank does freeze. Here is what Cummins says about it:

How do I keep the DEF from freezing? What happens if the DEF freezes
in the tank on the vehicle?
A. During vehicle operation, SCR systems are designed to provide heating for the DEF tank and supply lines. If DEF freezes when the vehicle is shut down, start up and normal operation of the vehicle will not be inhibited. The SCR heating system is designed to quickly return the DEF to liquid form and the operation of the vehicle will not be impacted. The freezing and unthawing of DEF will not cause degradation of the product.

My truck does not use DEF but I also pay the price of worse fuel mileage, it seems all this EPA stuff poises problems and costs, it is just a matter of which cost/problem you want to deal with....

Hope that helps a bit!

 

[JasG]

Ok...

And this "Blue DEF" stuff? The oil field mechanic stated they have to leave their trucks either 1.) running 24/7 or 2.) in a heated building. The ammonia freezes - he stated at anything below 32F! Just beautiful..
AKfish

I wasn't clear enough in my earlier post. Yes DEF freezes at around 32 degree's, but all of the truck have heaters. What I was told by a local Chevy dealer mechanic was that below 20 degrees the tank heaters can not keep up with the cold and the Chevy system goes into limp mode.

They had a row of 10-12 trucks out back that they had taken back in trade over the winter due to this issue. Here in NY it does get down around 15-zero (F) at night regular in the winter. Probably if it was left running it would be OK, but freezing up over night around here they can't thaw the system out.

I know the guy that hauls cattle for a friend of mine his current 2011 Chevy he said would probably be his last diesel.

 

[dodge man]

I haven't really heard of the CP3 pumps failing on the Cummins in large numbers. They have been used since 2003 when they came out with the common rail.

It seems very common that the maker, not just Ford, blames any problems on bad fuel. It's just a excuse in my book.

 

[Lt CHEG]

Ok... "before the manufacturer's recommend interval" how often is that exactly?? I believe that GM recommended 15K on the fuel filter for my '03 Dmax. 10k on the new trucks? Along this line, one of the diesel truck forums that I did some research on before replacing the injectors on my Dmax listed several different vendors that provided retro filter kits with OEM Caterpillar 2 micron filter setups.

Is that something that folk's with the latest generation of diesel trucks should pursue? I gotta admit - $50K or $60K for a new truck and it needs to be modded out - how frustrating can you get??

And this "Blue DEF" stuff? The oil field mechanic stated they have to leave their trucks either 1.) running 24/7 or 2.) in a heated building. The ammonia freezes - he stated at anything below 32F! Just beautiful..

AKfish

With my 6.4 Powerstroke I changed the oil every 3,000 miles and the fuel filters every 6,000 miles (every other oil change). The 6.4 Powerstroke has definite oil dilution issues and I could notice the engine making a little oil even at those short oil change intervals. I would go at least 5,000 miles on the oil with the LML Duramax which uses SCR and also added a 9th fuel injector to burn off the DPF which addresses a lot of the oil dilution issues. The LML is the only diesel from the big 3 that uses a 9th fuel injector to regenerate the DPF so it has a definite advantage in that regard but with the reduced regenerations that accompany SCR all of the newest diesels are an improvement over the DPF only previous generation diesels. However none of that has anything to do with the sensitivity of the fuel systems and I still wouldn't go more than every 5 to 6,000 miles on a fuel filter change. Also you MUST drain the water separator at least very month. There's no reason that the new diesels can't be as reliable as the older ones, it's just that all the extra power comes at the expense of much more maintenance to keep them at their best, regardless of what the manufacturers claim as far as increased maintenance intervals.