frugalangler
Gold Member
Wow, they just announced a 3.0L diesel in the 1/2 T
2019 Chevy Silverado
- Thread starter frugalangler
- Start date
BeeferMan
Gold Member
An obvious move once Ford announced the F150 would have a diesel option in 2018.
Wolfy
Veteran Member
Hope it is more reliable than the full size pickup diesel engines.
Copperhead
Veteran Member
With the complexity of modern emissions laden diesels, it would take a real serious situation for me to even consider one. I get enough grief from my heavy truck commercial diesels that I sure don't want one in my pickup if I can avoid it.
While I hope that this new 3L diesel is a great hit, if I was inclined to consider it I would wait it out for a couple of years while they get the bugs worked out of it. Problem is, even that diesel doesn't change the dynamics. It is still a 1/2 ton pickup. My 2500 6.0 gasser has significantly more capability than any 1/2 ton running around, and this diesel 1500 will be no different.
Some would argue fuel economy of the diesel, and that could be true. But right now, E85 is going for $1.70 in my area, and diesel is going for $3.15. I get about 11-12 mpg average on E85 in my 2500. For a diesel in my 2500 to break even, it would have to get 21-22 average. Possible, but not probable. Remember, that is average.... city, rural, highway, etc. The numbers work similar for a 1500, just a little better since it is 1000 lb lighter out of the gate. So while the new diesel 1500 might be able to pull off some nice fuel economy numbers, it probably will be in the range of the other brands.... about 5-6 mpg better across the board compared to the gas versions in the same pickup. That isn't good enough for me. I would much rather have a flex fuel gas engine. For a diesel to come close to matching my actual cost per mile on E85, it would have to get a minimum of 75% better fuel economy at today's prices. And even better than that for any hope of recovering the initial cost of purchase. Not going to happen.
Seems like more of a status symbol / social statement to me than any appreciable benefit of getting the diesel in the 1500.
While I hope that this new 3L diesel is a great hit, if I was inclined to consider it I would wait it out for a couple of years while they get the bugs worked out of it. Problem is, even that diesel doesn't change the dynamics. It is still a 1/2 ton pickup. My 2500 6.0 gasser has significantly more capability than any 1/2 ton running around, and this diesel 1500 will be no different.
Some would argue fuel economy of the diesel, and that could be true. But right now, E85 is going for $1.70 in my area, and diesel is going for $3.15. I get about 11-12 mpg average on E85 in my 2500. For a diesel in my 2500 to break even, it would have to get 21-22 average. Possible, but not probable. Remember, that is average.... city, rural, highway, etc. The numbers work similar for a 1500, just a little better since it is 1000 lb lighter out of the gate. So while the new diesel 1500 might be able to pull off some nice fuel economy numbers, it probably will be in the range of the other brands.... about 5-6 mpg better across the board compared to the gas versions in the same pickup. That isn't good enough for me. I would much rather have a flex fuel gas engine. For a diesel to come close to matching my actual cost per mile on E85, it would have to get a minimum of 75% better fuel economy at today's prices. And even better than that for any hope of recovering the initial cost of purchase. Not going to happen.
Seems like more of a status symbol / social statement to me than any appreciable benefit of getting the diesel in the 1500.
Peter 315
Super Member
Copperhead
(Seems like more of a status symbol / social statement to me than any appreciable benefit of getting the diesel in the 1500). Right on the money, I think people just buy them to say I have a diesel . Fuel is around $2.84 here, plus the extra cost when buying. The small car lots are full of 4 to 5 year old diesel trucks
(Seems like more of a status symbol / social statement to me than any appreciable benefit of getting the diesel in the 1500). Right on the money, I think people just buy them to say I have a diesel . Fuel is around $2.84 here, plus the extra cost when buying. The small car lots are full of 4 to 5 year old diesel trucks
buickanddeere
Super Member
So why is the diesel option of any importance ? This is 2018 , not 1990.
Copperhead
Veteran Member
It sure is 2018! Selective Catalytic Reduction units that require DEF. Diesel engines being made to eat their own feces via EGR, which of course requires a elaborate EGR cooler unit that, if it fails, can grenade an engine by dumping coolant into the cylinders. And since that creates a lot more soot, Diesel Particulate Filters to capture that and burn off periodically. All of that adds a pile of complexity to these diesels and alone adds about $5000 to the production cost of the vehicle. Try pricing these things separately and be sitting down when you do. And we haven't even talked about turbos. Water cooled VGT turbos that are common now. Lucky to buy a replacement off Ebay for less than $2K. Whereas a good ol traditional Borg Warner 171702 assymetric turbo for my 2000 Detroit 12.7L Series 60, I can buy any day of the week from between $600 and $700 with free shipping to my front door.
Of course, some might be able to delete all that emissions stuff, but at a pretty significant cost and they just threw their engine warranty in the garbage. A pretty high price to pay just for the bragging right of saying they have a diesel.
Just really hard for me to get excited about modern emission laden diesels. Not until I have a real, true need for one. And that time is not here nor is likely to be in the foreseeable future. My good ol 2015 2500 6.0L gasser will continue to reside with me. It is reliable, parts are easy to come by and it is easy to fix, etc. And it has no problem pulling and hauling some pretty significant loads. Considerably more than that diesel 1500. And significantly cheaper to buy than that diesel 1500 also. And the diesels I do own, they are pre-emission and I will just get a factory reman crate engine and drop it in when the current one is ready to die. Will just keep the heavy trucks going and avoid all this emissions nonsense.
Of course, some might be able to delete all that emissions stuff, but at a pretty significant cost and they just threw their engine warranty in the garbage. A pretty high price to pay just for the bragging right of saying they have a diesel.
Just really hard for me to get excited about modern emission laden diesels. Not until I have a real, true need for one. And that time is not here nor is likely to be in the foreseeable future. My good ol 2015 2500 6.0L gasser will continue to reside with me. It is reliable, parts are easy to come by and it is easy to fix, etc. And it has no problem pulling and hauling some pretty significant loads. Considerably more than that diesel 1500. And significantly cheaper to buy than that diesel 1500 also. And the diesels I do own, they are pre-emission and I will just get a factory reman crate engine and drop it in when the current one is ready to die. Will just keep the heavy trucks going and avoid all this emissions nonsense.
OP
frugalangler
Gold Member
I hear all the rants about the new diesels, and for many they are relevant, the new ones aren't for everyone. But, there are some of us that appreciate the difference that a diesel delivers, and are willing to pay up a little up front for those. Some of the things are:
Drivability - My Jeep w/ it's 3.0L EcoDiesel will pull my bass boat at 75MPH and very rarely downshift out of 8th gear, but most all of my buddies w/ either 1/2T PU's or SUV's are constantly hunting in search of torque to pull hills because their torque is at a much higher RPM, typically above 3K RPM where it's in the torque curve (yes, the newer turbo Fords are better, but still search for gearing). To me, that means a lot.
Economy - Yes, I pay a premium for fuel, but I've run spreadsheets since I started towing w/ a diesel to ensure it's the correct decision for me - and what I found is that my ROI for the up-charge on the diesel turns in about 75K miles, last diesel I used for 126K so I was ROI positive there, and maintenance cost was not out of line to what a gas engine was, biggest was I used 2X the amount of oil, but I do all my own maintenance so it's only the cost of the oil, not the increased oil change cost in total. On the Jeep, I'm seeing even better improvement on mileage over a gas tow vehicle, most all my buddies struggle to pull their boats at above 10MPG and it drops like a brick as speed goes up, they are constantly asking me to run slower because their mileage drops BIG above 65MPH, I run better at about 72-75MPH because of where that puts me in the engines torque curve. I yearly make a trip from NE MO to East TX and round trip running the posted speed or just slightly above (turnpike posted 75, I'll run about 77) and for the total trip including to/from motel/launch for a week I pulled 19.5MPG vs. the 10MPG buddies got. So, in my case a fuel cost premium of about 15% (last trip was 87Octane @ $1.90/gal and #2 at $2.20/gal) I definitely got more MP$ (miles per $$) than my buddies! The other advantage is my non-towing MPG is about 33MPG running interstates, again 70-75MPH, where similar powered gas Jeeps (5.7L, not the lame 3.6L) are getting low 20's MPG, so again I'm MPG positive vs. the cost of fuel.
My Jeep spends almost 80% of it's time either towing or on the highway, hardly ever sees many miles in town slow&go traffic since I work from a home office, so it sits in the drive often 10 days in a row.
I look back to 1986 when I bought my first VW Jetta w/ a diesel - I was commuting 55 miles each way to my office, averaged about 52MPG where most similar gas Jettas would average about 25MPG, but because it was a NA I didn't see the drivability of the current turbo-diesels. I simply chose for economy, and at that era diesel was virtually the same $$/gal as gas, usually never varied +/- more than a couple cents per gal. That car definitely was ROI positive as the up charge was negligible back then.
Come forward to today, you can't pry the latest VW Passat TDI out of my wife's hands, we actually owned one of the Jetta TDI's (2012) that was included in the scandal - it got bought back and we replaced with the 2015 Passat for a mere $1,000 difference 5 years later. Why do we like that car? Drivability, it just goes when you want it to, knocks down 52MPG on the highway and we average a combined 42-45 city/hwy, and did I mention it goes when you ask it to? It's quiet so much so that many never realize it's a diesel unless we tell them or they remind us as we refuel - YOU KNOW THAT'S A DIESEL PUMP, DON'T YA?
So, I applaud the manufactures for giving us choices, and to finally see GM bring a diesel choice to market is great.
Are diesels a good choice for everyone? NO, but they are a great choice for some, I've got evidence that assures me that it's the right choice for me. And to those that scoff at the DEF, I've not found it to be a nuisance, yes it adds some cost / mile, but no where near enough to be concerned about - I'm averaging about 2.5G per 5K miles - paying about $8 / 2.5G, so about .0016 cents per mile or 80 cents per tank, I can live with that.
And, on another note, I've only had a diesel fuel issue one time since 1986, I never run additives (the old Jetta would get a gal of gas each fill in winter, and it's the one that gelled on me, but ULSD is much better I believe) and run a lot longer on fuel filter changes than most, my Duramax I ran 40K on fuel filter, never did change the filter on the 2012 Jetta, and run about 25K on the Jeep.
Feel free to disagree with my logic, but again I've tracked my decision and am comfortable it's right for me. Is it a status or ego thing, well I've always marched to a different drummer, so maybe, but that's not the driver - I don't go around rolling coal (smoke cloud to show off), etc. It's just a way of life for me.
Drivability - My Jeep w/ it's 3.0L EcoDiesel will pull my bass boat at 75MPH and very rarely downshift out of 8th gear, but most all of my buddies w/ either 1/2T PU's or SUV's are constantly hunting in search of torque to pull hills because their torque is at a much higher RPM, typically above 3K RPM where it's in the torque curve (yes, the newer turbo Fords are better, but still search for gearing). To me, that means a lot.
Economy - Yes, I pay a premium for fuel, but I've run spreadsheets since I started towing w/ a diesel to ensure it's the correct decision for me - and what I found is that my ROI for the up-charge on the diesel turns in about 75K miles, last diesel I used for 126K so I was ROI positive there, and maintenance cost was not out of line to what a gas engine was, biggest was I used 2X the amount of oil, but I do all my own maintenance so it's only the cost of the oil, not the increased oil change cost in total. On the Jeep, I'm seeing even better improvement on mileage over a gas tow vehicle, most all my buddies struggle to pull their boats at above 10MPG and it drops like a brick as speed goes up, they are constantly asking me to run slower because their mileage drops BIG above 65MPH, I run better at about 72-75MPH because of where that puts me in the engines torque curve. I yearly make a trip from NE MO to East TX and round trip running the posted speed or just slightly above (turnpike posted 75, I'll run about 77) and for the total trip including to/from motel/launch for a week I pulled 19.5MPG vs. the 10MPG buddies got. So, in my case a fuel cost premium of about 15% (last trip was 87Octane @ $1.90/gal and #2 at $2.20/gal) I definitely got more MP$ (miles per $$) than my buddies! The other advantage is my non-towing MPG is about 33MPG running interstates, again 70-75MPH, where similar powered gas Jeeps (5.7L, not the lame 3.6L) are getting low 20's MPG, so again I'm MPG positive vs. the cost of fuel.
My Jeep spends almost 80% of it's time either towing or on the highway, hardly ever sees many miles in town slow&go traffic since I work from a home office, so it sits in the drive often 10 days in a row.
I look back to 1986 when I bought my first VW Jetta w/ a diesel - I was commuting 55 miles each way to my office, averaged about 52MPG where most similar gas Jettas would average about 25MPG, but because it was a NA I didn't see the drivability of the current turbo-diesels. I simply chose for economy, and at that era diesel was virtually the same $$/gal as gas, usually never varied +/- more than a couple cents per gal. That car definitely was ROI positive as the up charge was negligible back then.
Come forward to today, you can't pry the latest VW Passat TDI out of my wife's hands, we actually owned one of the Jetta TDI's (2012) that was included in the scandal - it got bought back and we replaced with the 2015 Passat for a mere $1,000 difference 5 years later. Why do we like that car? Drivability, it just goes when you want it to, knocks down 52MPG on the highway and we average a combined 42-45 city/hwy, and did I mention it goes when you ask it to? It's quiet so much so that many never realize it's a diesel unless we tell them or they remind us as we refuel - YOU KNOW THAT'S A DIESEL PUMP, DON'T YA?
So, I applaud the manufactures for giving us choices, and to finally see GM bring a diesel choice to market is great.
Are diesels a good choice for everyone? NO, but they are a great choice for some, I've got evidence that assures me that it's the right choice for me. And to those that scoff at the DEF, I've not found it to be a nuisance, yes it adds some cost / mile, but no where near enough to be concerned about - I'm averaging about 2.5G per 5K miles - paying about $8 / 2.5G, so about .0016 cents per mile or 80 cents per tank, I can live with that.
And, on another note, I've only had a diesel fuel issue one time since 1986, I never run additives (the old Jetta would get a gal of gas each fill in winter, and it's the one that gelled on me, but ULSD is much better I believe) and run a lot longer on fuel filter changes than most, my Duramax I ran 40K on fuel filter, never did change the filter on the 2012 Jetta, and run about 25K on the Jeep.
Feel free to disagree with my logic, but again I've tracked my decision and am comfortable it's right for me. Is it a status or ego thing, well I've always marched to a different drummer, so maybe, but that's not the driver - I don't go around rolling coal (smoke cloud to show off), etc. It's just a way of life for me.
buickanddeere
Super Member
Could be why I said the diesel option is of no importance . Who would want one of the headaches ?