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  1. #1
    Veteran Member dstig1's Avatar
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    Default MIG vertical up trouble

    In my welding class we did a ton of out of position work, but it was all stick. I got to the point where I would call most of my vert up "acceptable" with stick. We did literally about 5 min of MIG in the last class, just for giggles. We didn't try anything out of position there as it seemed so easy. Flash forward to now. I have a really good welder - Miller XMT304 and 22A wire feeder. I can run flat position beads that look pretty decent overall. I can get good penetration and relatively smooth beads (depending on how steady I am...). I cannot, for the life of me make a vertical up bead work. Vertical down- no problem. But vert up has been a total mess. I get melted blobs that drip repeatedly every little bit as I go. See the mess? The one decent bead was vert down, just to see if I was crazy or not.

    -vertical-up-poo-large-jpg

    I tried everything from 18V/200 ipm to 24v/450ipm with 0.035 wire and C25 gas on 3/8" steel. I tried pushing uphill, dragging and everything in between. I used a straight-on torch angle and everything from a slight angle up to a severe angle up. I went fast, I went slow. I whipped, I zigged and even zagged. They ALL look the same. Drip drip drip

    Here's a simple fillet weld done flat that was perfectly decent. All this was done tonight.
    -plow-mount-weld-large-jpg

    It's not the machine. Works perfect in position and vert down. It's not gas coverage - I'm running 15-20 cfh, and the garage is closed - no wind, no fan. It is clearly me, but I have tried everything I know with my limited experience and can't do a thing with it. It must be me, but I can't figure it out to save my life.

    Any hints here?

    Thanks,
    Dave
    -Dave

    "Being a pessimist is great. You can't lose. Either you end up being right...or you are pleasantly surprised."

    L5240HST, QA, 824 Loader, 48" Forks, 48" Grapple, rear blade, box blade, landscape rake, Ancient Farmi Skidding winch
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  2. #2
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    Default Re: MIG vertical up trouble

    MIG, 99.95% of the time ALWAYS mig DOWN. But, that's not really the point, PRACTICE. Just a quick look but to me it looks like your WAY too fast in travel speed.

    Also your fillet weld in flat position, too fast travel speed, not steady.

    PRACTICE

    I wouldn't let that flat position weld out the door to a customer, PRACTICE

  3. #3
    Veteran Member dstig1's Avatar
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    Default Re: MIG vertical up trouble

    I kind of wondered if vert up was just not done with MIG but had no training on that to go on.

    Fast - slow it didn't matter. I tried every variation I could. If MIG just isn't really made to work vert up, then perhaps that explains it. Vert down it is! I just assumed it was like stick where you always went up for thicker stuff (>1/4" or so) to get good penetration.

    More practice always helps, but I am satisfied with the flat fillet weld I showed. Nope, I'm not perfectly smooth and never will be. Not a pro, and I know I will never get to that level, but I'll keep plugging away.

    Thanks for the info
    -Dave

    "Being a pessimist is great. You can't lose. Either you end up being right...or you are pleasantly surprised."

    L5240HST, QA, 824 Loader, 48" Forks, 48" Grapple, rear blade, box blade, landscape rake, Ancient Farmi Skidding winch
    Trailer - 10k/16' twin axle w/elec brakes
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  4. #4
    Elite Member Shield Arc's Avatar
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    Default Re: MIG vertical up trouble

    Quote Originally Posted by dstig1 View Post
    Vert down it is!
    Whoa, whoa! I never run Mig down hill, unless it is 10-GA or less. Run Mig down hill on a structural job and you'll be kicking rocks to the parking lot while carrying your lunch box!!!!!!!!!!!!

    First off, everybody is going to have a hard time running vertical up on a flat plate. Do your self a big favor. Practice on fillet or lap joints. Or at least two plates with a small gap! Not being there to watch you, but I find most people make the mistake of using too much gun / rod angle! Almost like they're trying to force the puddle up hill. What I do, is hold the gun straight in, (90-degrees to the plate) pull the trigger and hold there, (or a little side to side motion) until I get the size puddle / bead I want, then I pickup my shoulder and point the gun / rod down about 5-degrees. Let the molten metal lay on the shelf I just built. Some times I run a U motion, sometimes I run a upside down V for the first pass or two. For wider welds I just go side to side and pause on the ends to let the puddle fill, but move very fast across the middle. Otherwise you get a very crowned weld, which can give you wagon tracks! Nobody wants to deal with wagon tracks! At first you can count how long you hold on the ends, one thousand one, one thousand two, etc, etc. I suggest you don't do this! Learn to read the puddle, learn to read the puddle and know when it is time to move, or change gun / rod angle. Learning to read the puddle is the whole trick to welding!


    Here is a good chart I found online. For vertical up try the lower settings for metal thickness and size of wire.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails -mig-chart-jpg  


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  5. #5
    Elite Member Shield Arc's Avatar
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    Default Re: MIG vertical up trouble

    Here are some diagrams I scanned from a Lincoln book, maybe they will help.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails -vertical-technique-2-jpg   -vertical-technique-jpg   -vertical-up-jpg  


    Miller Dynasty 300.
    Lincoln V350-Pro w/pulse.
    Lincoln LF-72 wire feeder.
    Lincoln SG Spool gun.

    Lincoln LN-25.
    1937 IdealArc-300.
    Everlast PowerArc 200.
    Everlast PowerArc 300.
    5 Lincoln SA-200s.
    1800 Ellis saw.
    Hypertherm Powermax 1250, CNC table.
    PROFAX Welding Positioner.
    JD2 model 3.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: MIG vertical up trouble

    Very good, if your REALLY doing heavy structural stuff you should be using some dual shield flux cored wire. IE: stick on a spool! Hard wire vertical down I say, (1/4") plate. Most of all with any of welding, practice and be comfortable/steady, lean an elbow on something, sit if possible.

  7. #7
    Veteran Member ericher69's Avatar
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  8. #8
    Silver Member Todd727's Avatar
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    Default Re: MIG vertical up trouble


  9. #9
    Veteran Member ericher69's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dstig1
    In my welding class we did a ton of out of position work, but it was all stick. I got to the point where I would call most of my vert up "acceptable" with stick. We did literally about 5 min of MIG in the last class, just for giggles. We didn't try anything out of position there as it seemed so easy. Flash forward to now. I have a really good welder - Miller XMT304 and 22A wire feeder. I can run flat position beads that look pretty decent overall. I can get good penetration and relatively smooth beads (depending on how steady I am...). I cannot, for the life of me make a vertical up bead work. Vertical down- no problem. But vert up has been a total mess. I get melted blobs that drip repeatedly every little bit as I go. See the mess? The one decent bead was vert down, just to see if I was crazy or not.

    <img src="http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=269442"/>

    I tried everything from 18V/200 ipm to 24v/450ipm with 0.035 wire and C25 gas on 3/8" steel. I tried pushing uphill, dragging and everything in between. I used a straight-on torch angle and everything from a slight angle up to a severe angle up. I went fast, I went slow. I whipped, I zigged and even zagged. They ALL look the same. Drip drip drip

    Here's a simple fillet weld done flat that was perfectly decent. All this was done tonight.
    <img src="http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=269443"/>

    It's not the machine. Works perfect in position and vert down. It's not gas coverage - I'm running 15-20 cfh, and the garage is closed - no wind, no fan. It is clearly me, but I have tried everything I know with my limited experience and can't do a thing with it. It must be me, but I can't figure it out to save my life.

    Any hints here?

    Thanks,
    Dave
    Did you try any of the recommendations? If so how did the weld turn out
    ericher69
    IAFF Local 849

  10. #10
    Super Member crazyal's Avatar
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    Default Re: MIG vertical up trouble

    What they said. When learning with mig try doing short welds at first. 1" inch at most. If things start to go south while learning you try to compensate when just stopping is a much better option. It also allows you to reset things like welding angle that you might not have realized you changed because you were too focused on the weld. Practice makes perfect.
    Kubota L4240,Case 580K backhoe, Case 450 Dozer

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