Thoughts on this used welder?

   / Thoughts on this used welder?
  • Thread Starter
#61  
Whooo Hoo!.. got her going! Now I gotta say.. You have guts enough to do that, I bet with a little help you can hook up that box and and put in a 50 amp breaker.!

It ain't a question of guts. Just of know-how. And my neighbor says he's got that, so I reckon you're right. My service panel is 100% full, so I'm going to need to get some piggyback breakers to free up a couple slots. I'm tempted to wire in a backfeed breaker for my generator while I'm at it...

Now it's just a question of coming up with the spending money. That may take until the 15th... or until I get some expenses reimbursed... or until I convince my partner to agree to pony up out of some other budgetary category. Seriously? Do we need groceries and gas in the car? I gotta get welding so I can put some pics up on TBN!
 
   / Thoughts on this used welder? #62  
Yes.. all current flows between the 2 phases.. L1 and L2.. (or Line 1 and Line2 connections) No ground necessary for operation, but is necessary for safety. In a regular 115 volt receptical, you have a neutral and a line (either L1 or L2 depending on which slot the breaker is placed in) this gives you 115-120 volts nominal depending on your 2 phases coming in. the 220-230-240 volts between the phases.
James K0UA

Im not an electrician, but i thought the legs were the same phase, but have potential between them because the center tap out on the poles is grounded.

You could look at how your dryer is wired up and duplicate something similar for your welder.
 
   / Thoughts on this used welder? #63  
Understanding 220 or 240 volt Electrical Circuits

To understand how a 240 volt (also known as 220 volt) household circuit works you should first know a little bit about how a regular 120 / 110 volt circuit works. If you are at all familiar with residential electrical wiring then you probably already know that in most cases appliances, and fixtures connect to three wires:


1) A black wire which is often known as the "hot" wire, which carries the current in to the fixture.
2) A white wire called the neutral which completes the electrical circuit.
3) A bare copper wire called the ground, the sole function of which is to enhance user safety.

When the circuit is in use current is "pushed" through the fixture by way of the "hot" wire and then to ground by way of the neutral, and unless something goes wrong the bare ground wire doesn't do anything except to remain ever vigilant in case of a problem.

Since house current is alternating current the actual direction that the electrons flow reverses direction 60 times per second (60 cycles). Put another way, the hot wire has a negative charge alternating with an equal positive charge, and the polarity of the hot wire reverses 60 times per second.

Now for the quick explanation of 240 / 220 volt house current; Appliances which use straight 240 current (such as electric water heaters, or rotary phase converters) also have three wires:


1) A black wire which is often known as the "hot" wire, which carries the current in to the fixture.
2) Another "hot" wire which may be blue, red or white (if it is white the code actually requires it to painted or otherwise marked one of the other colors, but often it is not) which also carries current in to the fixture.
3) A bare copper wire called the ground, the sole function of which is to enhance user safety.

That's it, no neutral. Now, if you are paying attention, then you are probably wondering "If there isn't a neutral wire then how is the circuit completed?" The answer is that when one hot wire is negative, then the other is positive, so the two hot wires complete the circuit together because they are "out of phase". This is why 240 volt circuits connect to double pole breakers that are essentially two single pole breakers tied together. In the main panel, every other breaker is out of phase with the adjoining breakers. So, in essence 240 volt wiring is powered by 2 - 120 volt hot wires that are 180 degrees out of phase.

I previously mentioned "straight" 240 volt appliances, but there is another class of 240 volt equipment; some appliances (such as clothes dryers and ranges) use 240 volt current to power their main function (drying clothes or cooking food) but use 120 volt current to power accessories such as the clock on your stove or the light inside the oven, or the digital readout on your dryer controls. That is why some 240 volt circuits have four wires:


1) A black wire which is often known as the "hot" wire, which carries the current in to the fixture.
2) Another "hot" wire which is red, which also carries current in to the fixture.
3) A white wire called the neutral which completes the electrical circuit for the 120 volt accessories only.
4) A bare copper wire called the ground, the sole function of which is to enhance user safety.

At one time, the code allowed for one insulated wire to function as both ground and neutral in 120 / 240 volt combo circuits, but now all such circuits must use the 4 wire scheme. This is why your new dryer (or electric range) might have 4 prongs on its plug and your old dryer receptacle only has 3 holes. In which case article 250.140 of the 2005 N.E.C. (National Electric Code) allows for the "pigtail" (the cord and plug assembly) to be changed to match the old 3 wire receptacle as long as certain conditions are met. The National Electric Code allows that, but your local code might not, so check first, or even better yet make a deal with the appliance dealer to do it
 
   / Thoughts on this used welder?
  • Thread Starter
#64  
At one time, the code allowed for one insulated wire to function as both ground and neutral in 120 / 240 volt combo circuits, but now all such circuits must use the 4 wire scheme. This is why your new dryer (or electric range) might have 4 prongs on its plug and your old dryer receptacle only has 3 holes. In which case article 250.140 of the 2005 N.E.C. (National Electric Code) allows for the "pigtail" (the cord and plug assembly) to be changed to match the old 3 wire receptacle as long as certain conditions are met. The National Electric Code allows that, but your local code might not, so check first, or even better yet make a deal with the appliance dealer to do it

I was talking about this with my dad last night, and told him, "If it's got 120 in it, it has to have four wires." He said, "No it doesn't. The ground can be used as neutral to derive 120 from 240. Look at your dryer. It's only got three prongs." I had to admit that he was right. This resolves the question. My dryer (post-2005) probably has four lugs, but I only bought a three-prong cord when I got it because I only had a three-prong receptacle in my house. Maybe I ought to look up NEC 250.140 and see what those "certain conditions" are. Also, maybe I ought to check my dryer's owner's manual. I'm guessing that, if you use a three-prong plug, you're probably supposed to bond the dryer's ground lug to neutral to allow the chassis to be grounded. I probably followed the manual when I installed it, but it can't hurt to be sure.
 
   / Thoughts on this used welder? #65  
I was talking about this with my dad last night, and told him, "If it's got 120 in it, it has to have four wires." He said, "No it doesn't. The ground can be used as neutral to derive 120 from 240. Look at your dryer. It's only got three prongs." I had to admit that he was right. This resolves the question. My dryer (post-2005) probably has four lugs, but I only bought a three-prong cord when I got it because I only had a three-prong receptacle in my house. Maybe I ought to look up NEC 250.140 and see what those "certain conditions" are. Also, maybe I ought to check my dryer's owner's manual. I'm guessing that, if you use a three-prong plug, you're probably supposed to bond the dryer's ground lug to neutral to allow the chassis to be grounded. I probably followed the manual when I installed it, but it can't hurt to be sure.

Thing is, what you can get by with and make work, does not always meet code. Older houses will often have the neutral and ground wires all bonded at the electrical panel. I am not an electrician either, (nor do I play one on TV:))

James K0UA
 
   / Thoughts on this used welder?
  • Thread Starter
#66  
Well, that all goes back to those "certain conditions," doesn't it?
 
   / Thoughts on this used welder?
  • Thread Starter
#67  
Exception: For existing branch-circuit installations only
where an equipment grounding conductor is not present in
the outlet or junction box, the frames of electric ranges,
wall-mounted ovens, counter-mounted cooking units,
clothes dryers, and outlet or junction boxes that are part of
the circuit for these appliances shall be permitted to be
connected to the grounded circuit conductor if all the following
conditions are met.
(1) The supply circuit is 120/240-volt, single-phase,
3-wire; or 208Y/120-volt derived from a 3-phase,
4-wire, wye-connected system.
(2) The grounded conductor is not smaller than 10 AWG
copper or 8 AWG aluminum.
(3) The grounded conductor is insulated, or the grounded
conductor is uninsulated and part of a Type SE serviceentrance
cable and the branch circuit originates at the
service equipment.
(4) Grounding contacts of receptacles furnished as part of
the equipment are bonded to the equipment.

I suspect it is point 4 that I need to check on--that is, if the dryer has four lugs, is the ground lug bonded to the neutral lug.
 
   / Thoughts on this used welder? #68  
I didn't read all of the posts but if you are limited to a 115v circuit and a 20 amp breaker, There are new 115/230volt stick tig units out there that have Power Factor Correction built in. This will enable you to get over 100 amps output from a 20 amp 115v recepticle. Check it out. At 100+ amps, you can do a lot of stick welding.
 
   / Thoughts on this used welder?
  • Thread Starter
#69  
Picked up a box of supplies from a guy off Craigslist. Paid $40 for a hood, slag hammer, gloves, cotton jacket, two boxes of 7018 and a box of 6011. Still planning for the 220 outlet before I can really get started.

The supplies also came with some soapstone sticks. What are those for? The 7018 is low-hydrogen, which means it's supposed to be stored in an oven, right? I don't have an oven, of course. What should I do with it?
 
   / Thoughts on this used welder? #70  
Man that sounds like one he!! of a deal!:thumbsup:

Soapstone is to write on steel, concrete floor, etc, etc.
Yes 7018 is suppose to be kept in an oven. But only if you're doing code work! Or if you are going to be welding fairly thick material. Just keep them in a dry place, a lot of people keep them in the house on top of the hot water heater. Below is a link to some testing I did with 7018.

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/welding/211904-7018-break-test.html
 
 
Top