Stick on a TIG machine

[joshuabardwell]

Since stick and TIG are both CV (Edit: CC) processes, many (most? all?) TIG welders also say they support stick. But is there typically a difference in arc quality between a dedicated stick welder and a TIG welder that also does stick? I know one potential difference is that some stick welders specifically are designed to run 6010, but other than that...

[Mark @ Everlast]

No, they are Constant Current process. TIG typically runs at a lower voltage than stick...say 18 volts at 200 amps...where stick will run up to 28 on average. 6010 needs more voltage to run smoothly , 27-30 at say 200 amps. Many TIGs will put out enough extra voltage in stick mode to run 7018, but input limits the output and many makers want to keep TIG machines putting out maximum power for the minimum input. You can't get more power out of the unit than you put in in volts and amps. (watts= VxA), so a company wanting to sell a unit that is primarily a TIG, would be mostly interested in putting out a TIG at the lowest power consumption level possible. Having to put out 12 to 14 extra volts for the same amperage with 6010, increases power demand greatly.

[joshuabardwell]

No, they are Constant Current process.

I'm sorry. I knew that, but I flubbed. I've corrected it.

[joshuabardwell]

Thanks for the detailed answer (as usual) Mark. On the flip-side, if we look at a unit like the PA 160 STH, does that mean that stick welder that has been adapted to also do TIG is going to inherently run at less efficiency than a unit that is intended to run TIG? Will it be able to easily step down to TIG voltage, or will it still tend to run at the same voltage, which is higher than optimal for TIG?

When folks talk about a welder's ability to run 6010, are they implicitly including 6011, or is it only 6010 that is difficult for some welders to run well?

[Mark @ Everlast]

Thanks for the detailed answer (as usual) Mark. On the flip-side, if we look at a unit like the PA 160 STH, does that mean that stick welder that has been adapted to also do TIG is going to inherently run at less efficiency than a unit that is intended to run TIG? Will it be able to easily step down to TIG voltage, or will it still tend to run at the same voltage, which is higher than optimal for TIG?

When folks talk about a welder's ability to run 6010, are they implicitly including 6011, or is it only 6010 that is difficult for some welders to run well?

The 160 sth was not adapted to do tig. It was a complete new unit designed with both. The 140ST, though great for both is primarily a stick machine, but anyone who has one and tried it can tell you it is far from sub-par on its tig qualities. It's easier to make a stick run tig. Inverters can be made more easily to fit the demands of both. It doesn't have anything to do with efficiency.

When people talk about cellulosic rods or cellulose rods, they are referring to both. But when they talk about 6010, no self respecting welder would include both under 6010. Each is a fine rod unto its own, even though they are very similar. Both can be difficult to run. 6010 is harder to run than 6011 without a doubt though. Most people cut their teeth in welding with a 6011. It's a fine rod, but doesn't have quite the penetration of the 6010 and in comparison far smoother. A 6010 is like being around a spoiled rich kid with a temper. If you are the Super nanney, you can handle it. If you are the baby sitter, well, you better stick with the 6011 which is the better behaved child of average means parents.

[joshuabardwell]

Thanks, Mark. It looks like the bottom line is that any TIG will run stick and any stick will run TIG, but there are wide variations in the facility with which each will do both, and the designer's intent is paramount. This does leave the consumer in a tricky spot, since marketers will put as many claims as possible on a given unit's list, regardless of the designer's intent. Glad you're here to give the inside scoop on the Everlast line.

I like your "super nanny" analogy for 6010. I have said that 6011 is like a high-end sports-car. If you know what you're doing, you will make it dance the jig, but if you don't, you'll be off the track at the first corner. By comparison, some other rods are dead simple to run, but much less versatile.

[Shield Arc]

So Mark will a guy see a better 6010 arc on a DC only SMAW / GTAW machine? My Dynasty 300 is the best Tig machine I have ever run, does fine with 7018, but is horrible with 6010, even though it has the dig option. My old 1980s Miller 330 A/BP transformer machine was one of the best 7018 running machines I ever used, it was OK with 6010 but nothing special. As you know both the Dynasty and 330 A/BP are AC / DC machine. I haven't tried Tig welding with my V350-Pro yet, mainly because I didn't buy a foot pedal with it, and I would have to use my Tig rig also. So I'm just wondering if a DC only machine will make a difference?

[Mark @ Everlast]

So Mark will a guy see a better 6010 arc on a DC only SMAW / GTAW machine? My Dynasty 300 is the best Tig machine I have ever run, does fine with 7018, but is horrible with 6010, even though it has the dig option. My old 1980s Miller 330 A/BP transformer machine was one of the best 7018 running machines I ever used, it was OK with 6010 but nothing special. As you know both the Dynasty and 330 A/BP are AC / DC machine. I haven't tried Tig welding with my V350-Pro yet, mainly because I didn't buy a foot pedal with it, and I would have to use my Tig rig also. So I'm just wondering if a DC only machine will make a difference?

I don't think it has anything to do with the AC. But rather the engineers, and how they design the arc, and what they are targeting, in the way of the market, and typical use patterns I suspect. I'm no engineer, so going much beyond my technical knowledge is a dangerous thing...The AC part of the unit is a separate part. Part of it on an inverter or any transformer machine is how it converts to DC with the rectifier and if its a full wave or half wave bridge along with the size/type/number of capacitors used and transformer design itself. Ours use full wave bridge as far as I know which enable a higher output voltage as well as a smoother DC current, which then can be used to make a better DC arc and make it ready for 6010 capability.

[sdkubota]

I have a Lincoln Tig welder and use it for stick off and on with excellent results.

[Shield Arc]

OK Mark, for the money my Everlast PA-200 has the best arc I have seen with 6010, and 7018, and also has a very nice arc for GTAW with a Tig rig! I think we'll both agree it is not in the same league as my V-350-Pro? But the V350-Pro was over $5,000.00! So let me ask you this, which of your SMAW / GTAW machines has the same beautiful arc with 6010, and 7018 as my PA-200, but also comes with a foot pedal, and high frequency start?