To Weld or not to weld, that is the question...

kiotiken · Oct 22, 2014

I'm building a firewood processor. http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/build-yourself/324028-firewood-processor-build-thread.html I just purchased the steel to build the cutting head. It will be a 1 way, 4 way and 6 way splitting head and will be made out of 6" - 1.00" flat stock. It will fit inside a frame that can slide up and down inside a channel to allow it to adjust for log size and the number of ways it cuts but still be braced on the sides and in the center. The frame will be made of 6" - .500 flat stock.

My question is should I attempt to weld this thing together with my Miller 180 cranked up to full with a couple passes on both sides or should I have a pro weld it with a machine that's up for the job. My concern for the 6 way splitter is I won't be able to get a great angle with the gun on the insides. I know I can't possibly get proper penetration on inch thick material or even .500 if I weld from both sides, but can I get enough for it to stick together and not be torn apart?

If I try it on my own, I will grind some of the metal away on the edges were possible to get better penetration on my first pass. I don't have an Oxy set up, is there any point trying to pre-heat the steel with a regular torch (yellow bottle, I believe it's Map gas?) or is that pretty much useless? Should I weld it from bottom to top to get more heat into the metal as I'm laying down the bead? Any tips or thoughts are appreciated.

LD1 · Oct 23, 2014

Hard to picture the design in my head at this hour. But first question...what's the tonnage gonna be?

Weather it will hold I think will have more to do with your skill than the welder.

If it was mine, I'd groove it out, leave a root opening, and have at it. Several passes.

If it does fail, its not like anyone will be in danger. At that point you can clean it up and have someone with a larger machine do it. I think the only issue though, will be getting the gun in there and on a good angle like you mentioned.

BTW: what is a 1-way wedge? Is that like no wedge at all that the ram just pushes and you end up with 1-piece?

mikehaugen · Oct 23, 2014

LD1 said:
BTW: what is a 1-way wedge? Is that like no wedge at all that the ram just pushes and you end up with 1-piece?

:laughing:

I say give it a try. The nice thing about things like this is that they can be re-done if need be, and as LD1 said there's not much risk of injury in the event of a failure. Just don't stand in front of it the first few times you have a really tough log on it! :laughing:

muddstopper · Oct 23, 2014

I have a miller 175, pretty much the same machine as yours. I used 1in plate for my splitter build. I tacked up everything with the mig, but when it came time to weld soild, I switched to stick. Bevel and multiple passes on the wedge and the cylinder mounts is a must. No use putting it together and then haveing to rebuild it. I am not saying your 180 mig wont do the job, but I felt stick was the better choice for me. Hasnt broke yet and i use a 6way wedge.

peachfarmer · Oct 23, 2014

I'm a professional welder for GE of 41 years. If you plan on using the log splitter a lot, consider a harder alloy for the wedge also welding electrode choice is key. Clean the steel before welding and in between each pass. SMAW (stick) will give you better depth of penetration. Stager your weld sequence from side to side.

Mark @ Everlast · Oct 23, 2014

Splitting wedges give manufacturers headaches. Having worked closely with them and factories who make them, no ordinary steel will do. In fact it's hard to find good steel in the US that will hold up if it is a real productive processor. One company has to have the made in Sweden. It's not like buiding a log splitter.

kiotiken · Oct 23, 2014

LD1 said:
BTW: what is a 1-way wedge? Is that like no wedge at all that the ram just pushes and you end up with 1-piece?

Now that's funny!

Thanks for all the comments guys. Unfortunately, I only have my Miller 180 mig machine, no stick available. As far as a harder alloy goes, the steel should be arriving on my driveway in the next 10 minutes, so that's not an option. I'm also not equipped with the tools or skill to weld anything other than mild steel at this point. I was thinking about looking at having it hardened after it's built, any thoughts on that? I'm not even sure how it's done so I'd have to look into finding somebody to do it for me. As far as the amount of use this will get, I'm building it for my personal use primarily. I burn approx. 15 face cord a year. Since I'm finally making the leap to a processor over my splitter, I'm thinking of doing enough each year to sell and pay for a nice cozy "bonus" trip down south to sit on a beach with the mrs. every year. That would be about 60 face cord + my 15 is 75 per year so it's not a huge amount, but a lot more than my currently splitter sees.

ThomasH · Oct 23, 2014

kiotiken said:
Now that's funny!

Thanks for all the comments guys. Unfortunately, I only have my Miller 180 mig machine, no stick available. As far as a harder alloy goes, the steel should be arriving on my driveway in the next 10 minutes, so that's not an option. I'm also not equipped with the tools or skill to weld anything other than mild steel at this point. I was thinking about looking at having it hardened after it's built, any thoughts on that? I'm not even sure how it's done so I'd have to look into finding somebody to do it for me. As far as the amount of use this will get, I'm building it for my personal use primarily. I burn approx. 15 face cord a year. Since I'm finally making the leap to a processor over my splitter, I'm thinking of doing enough each year to sell and pay for a nice cozy "bonus" trip down south to sit on a beach with the mrs. every year. That would be about 60 face cord + my 15 is 75 per year so it's not a huge amount, but a lot more than my currently splitter sees.

I would think you would do fine with your welder (turned all the way up) *if* you grind a bevel so you can build a root pass and go from there. Also, welding 3" on each side as you go will keep the it from warping as much and also let the welder rest for a few seconds after each section so you don't overheat it.

I would also consider making the wedge a bolt in place piece, so it's replaceable.

muddstopper · Oct 23, 2014

I built my cutting edges up with a manganese hardening rod. I would have to go to the shop to see what the numbers are. I have found that the edges stay sharp for a long time. With the manganese alloy, the more you pound on the surface, the harder it gets. It will eventually get so hard that it will break out, but run a new bead and hit with the grinder and its good to go. Better have a good grinder because this stuff will eat the rocks off one. I got the rods from a track welder. They had switched to a new type of rod and all the old stuff was being tossed in the dumpster. The intended purpose of this type of rod is to weld up track frogs, switch points and rail ends that take a beating from train wheels running over them.

bigdeano · Oct 23, 2014

You can have mild steel case hardened. The surface can be made as hard as a file to whatever depth you specify. I think they usually charge by weight. Just look in the yellow pages.

yomax4 · Oct 23, 2014

Look at your actual output. Most of those little Fuzzy Millers are only 150 amps. I have had my wedges pull loose using 250 amps on Pulse. I had to admit that stick was king in this department. I rewelded everything with 8018 and never had another issue. I hate to admit this but it's true.

kiotiken · Oct 24, 2014

ThomasH said:
I would think you would do fine with your welder (turned all the way up) *if* you grind a bevel so you can build a root pass and go from there. Also, welding 3" on each side as you go will keep the it from warping as much and also let the welder rest for a few seconds after each section so you don't overheat it.

I would also consider making the wedge a bolt in place piece, so it's replaceable.

Thanks, good tips. It will be bolt in place, actually, hang in place. A cylinder will hold the rectangular frame inside a vertical channel and raise and lower it to the desired height. If the cylinder is removed, the frame will fall out the bottom. With the cost of this frame (a lot of 1" flat stock), hopefully I don't have to replace it often.

bigdeano said:
You can have mild steel case hardened. The surface can be made as hard as a file to whatever depth you specify. I think they usually charge by weight. Just look in the yellow pages.

Excellent, that was my thought. I will look into the cost. My concern is it will cost more than simply building another cutting head in which case it's probably not worth it.

yomax4 said:
Look at your actual output. Most of those little Fuzzy Millers are only 150 amps. I have had my wedges pull loose using 250 amps on Pulse. I had to admit that stick was king in this department. I rewelded everything with 8018 and never had another issue. I hate to admit this but it's true.

The welder is rated 180 amps, I don't know how I'd be able to tell if it's putting that out or not. It's discouraging to hear your experience, but I'm still leaning towards giving it a try. A good groove on both sides and several passes. If it doesn't hold, I'll have to have it done by a pro.

Reverser · Oct 24, 2014

Mark @ Everlast said:
Splitting wedges give manufacturers headaches. Having worked closely with them and factories who make them, no ordinary steel will do. In fact it's hard to find good steel in the US that will hold up if it is a real productive processor. One company has to have the made in Sweden. It's not like building a log splitter.

It's too bad that it's come to that. Problem being that poor grade, low priced import steel has been allowed to flood the market, causing US steel manufacturers to go out of business, or have to cut back so severely that they are barely making ends meet.

Sodo · Oct 24, 2014

Look for something that uses a high grade steel wear part such like a roadgrader cutting edge = a replaceable section. And then cut that hardened steel wear part into 4 or 6 peices. Someone here probably has better suggestions what wear part to look for.

I don't know how to assess the heat affect on the cutting edge, but could you set up to weld with MOST of the cutting edge sitting in water? Or wet it before welding and if the cutting edge starts to steam (or dries up) then douse the whole thing.

If your welds are not much in bending I would go at it with 180 amps. I weld mostly with 120v and I can tell you that welds can be made a lot stronger than some folks think. You will be in a good position to test it, don't worry so much about those who aren't out there actually building stuff and mashing on it.

1/2" welded both sides? Peice of cake. I'm sure you can easily attain full penetration by welding 2 sides. For 1" I'd still do it with 180 amps and with confidence. If preheating (and not worrying about the temper) I'd preheat with a roofing or weedburner torch attached to a large propane cylinder. Or tack it together and set it in a good hot campfire. A little 1 .lb MAPP cylinder won't get you anywhere.

Good thing about having a welder - steel is such a great material you can just cut it off and do-over in many cases. Sometimes a test & do-over takes significantly less time than the research to "do it once." So what if you have to build it up again once a year? Big problem for the average joe, but you have a welder, it's trivial for you.

I'm pretty sure i know what you're describing (4 way or 6 way head). If you can post a pic of your project or the components, or find a similar item on google images, you may get better suggestions. Hope this helps.

kiotiken · Oct 24, 2014

Sodo said:
I'm pretty sure i know what you're describing (4 way or 6 way head). If you can post a pic of your project or the components, or find a similar item on google images, you may get better suggestions.

Well, I have a really bad pic of my paper drawing of the splitter head. I was designing and re-designing so a lot of the scribbles may not make any sense. The second picture is the vertical channel that will hold the cutter head. It will be suspended from the top by a hydraulic cylinder to lift and lower. You can check out my other thread on the actual build, there's more pics there. I posted the URL a couple posts back.

Top section is the 6 way. Bottom section is the 4 way and in between the two is the two way.

Incomplete vertical channel to hold the splitter head and allow it to move up and down.

Sodo · Oct 24, 2014

Looks like a FUN project!

OK I got it. Not easy to change cutting edges. But it's a beefy unit all connected together. Might make it so you can turn the processor on its side (or at least easily remove the cutting head) for welding / sharpening maintenance. Or build one and if it doesn't last long enough then during that time you can search for harder material or another solution. Maybe just fillet-welding spring steel tines along the (now flat) cutting edge will give you a high grade cutting edge. If the knife is 1/2" material, maybe cut-offs from 1/4" spring tines would be just right. And easy to replace if ever necessary.

Heres a pic of a tine from Google images, you can cut them with an abrasive saw. They don't have to be straight, you can cut straight sections or even heat and bend straight, but should be fairly easy to find a source of hard steel to use.

I suppose you hand-select the position ( of the wood ) depending on the size of the round? I'd put the 6-way in the center because it will clearly use the highest force and you don't want that off-center (?). Not sure how that lays out I'm just typing not drawing.

One thing that concerns me is that it appears to be constrained and you might jam a peice of wood into a cavity. I suppose you are planning that when the ram comes up it goes over ejectors for each possible cavity?

kiotiken · Oct 24, 2014

The wood falls into the trough (not yet build), so it is always at the same height. The cutting head moves up and down by a hydraulic cylinder to match the size of the wood or the cutting head I want to use. The cutting head is braced against the back of the processor as well as up both sides by the angle iron. The head itself will block those gaps, so I don't think that's going to be an issue. The cylinder only has a 12" stroke so the only way I've been able to design it (not that somebody couldn't figure it out differently) is to have the 6 way at the top, the 4 way at the bottom and the 2 way in the middle, between the two of them. Anytime one of the heads is used, it is always centered in the processor and to the round being split. Here's a much more impressive version of what I'm trying to build. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbGtJYbXz7I

Sodo · Oct 24, 2014

OK I see it, the 'knife' is stationary & self clearing. Looks like you'll have to get used to your firewood stacks being 11 1/2" max.

Awesome machine, thanks for posting the video.

Pretty easy to do knife maintenance. If you're splitting for yourself you will never have to do any maintenance (just a guess). If this thing starts to make money for you then you may have to maintain the knives.

Here's a pic from the video