Glad to own an older Yanmar now

[bmaverick]

Well, as technology increases, so does the cost to repair or even own a tractor.

If the tractor breaks, your dealer is the only one to fix the modern machine.

I'm happy to own a restored gray Yanmar now. I can not afford dealer repairs.

Farmers lobby for the right to fix their own tractors

Farmers lobby for the right to fix their own tractors | News & Observer

Just some clips from the article ....

Farmers trying to fix the computers that run the machines could be in violation of the federal Digital Millennium Copyright Act. That means if a tractor stops working, the owner has no choice but to call the dealer. He can't check the system codes himself. 4 states consider requiring manufacturers to make diagnostic and technical information available to farmers, independent repair technicians.

John Deere, in a 2014 comment to the U.S. Copyright Office, said the people who buy its tractors don't own the software that makes them run. Instead, each has an implied license for the life of the vehicle to operate the vehicle.

In some cases, the company said, software could be subject to third-party restrictions and accessing it could violate copyright, trade secret or contractual rights.

But farmers work when they can, and every hour matters when storms, frost and mud leave them with few suitable days. A malfunctioning combine can bring the fall harvest to a standstill.

Waiting for a dealer to diagnose and fix a problem could mean hours, days or weeks lost.

 

[Wagtail]

Mate, there have been several threads within the past year (even month) on this topic. And it always comes down to the same thing... you are more than free to work on your own modern tractor so long as you purchase the diagnostic equipment and diagnostic programmes to do it.

Which, of course is prohibitively expensive unless you have a fleet of tractors to maintain. So, an authorised dealership/repair shop is the economically way to go.

The same holds true for modern cars & vehicles. Modern tractors are now 'catching up' with the computer managed/monitored world. Even the most inexpensive new car, today, has a computer in it for diagnostics and your 'local mechanic' has bought the equipment/programme to service it... or he/she has gone out of business.

A good tractor dealership (such as mine) have mobile repair utes, that have this diagnostic equipment onboard, in order to service their customers better and get them back to work.

For those who adamantly want to maintain their own tractors above simple fluid changes and adjustments; feel free to purchase a 'bare bones' tractor.

 

[bmaverick]

Mate, there have been several threads within the past year (even month) on this topic. And it always comes down to the same thing... you are more than free to work on your own modern tractor so long as you purchase the diagnostic equipment and diagnostic programmes to do it.

Which, of course is prohibitively expensive unless you have a fleet of tractors to maintain. So, an authorised dealership/repair shop is the economically way to go.

The same holds true for modern cars & vehicles. Modern tractors are now 'catching up' with the computer managed/monitored world. Even the most inexpensive new car, today, has a computer in it for diagnostics and your 'local mechanic' has bought the equipment/programme to service it... or he/she has gone out of business.

Car & vehicles built after 1986 with computers have OBD-II codes that any person with a mere $49USD can self diagnose on the cheap. There are thousands of these codes and it's soooo simple to find the info relating to this standard codes anywhere on the web.

As for tractors my dear friend, it's not the case. Thus, modern tractors have become anti-competitive and anti-friendly to farmers, homesteaders and rural ownership.

 

[Wagtail]

I understand what you're saying but (there's always a but, eh? ) we're comparing apples & oranges. A regular modern, even post '86, road vehicle doesn't have the same computer controls/sensors as a large HP modern tractor. I would hazard a pretty good guess that a modern OEM produced high-performance street legal V8 'muscle car' or a luxury SUV that, amongst other things, can park itself have computers that you're not allowed to muck around with.

Your tractor & mine don't fall into the category (HP wise) that the commercial farmer uses. And that's just the tractor... the article provided states in the second paragraph: "They have air conditioning, guidance systems, satellite radio and more sensors than he can shake a corn cob at, all kept running by computer systems and software." (emphasis mine) These sensors, computer controled systems and guidance systems are intellectual property of the OEM who've spent a lot of research & development time and dollars incorporating these features into their products (combines, planters, fertilisers, etc... too).

Which would be an incredible cost savings to unscrupulous manufacturers if they could simply pinch/copy them for their own use. THIS is one of the main reasons why the 'codes' aren't available.

You'll notice that your provided article, and all of the other articles that have brought this subject up, specifically mentions John Deere. It's because they are the only US owned manufacturer of these high-end tractors and self-propelled implements... so they'd be the only ones that can be complained about. All the other "Big Boy" agricultural OEMs are foreign (head office wise).

 

[clemsonfor]

Well, as technology increases, so does the cost to repair or even own a tractor.

If the tractor breaks, your dealer is the only one to fix the modern machine.

I'm happy to own a restored gray Yanmar now. I can not afford dealer repairs.

Farmers lobby for the right to fix their own tractors

Farmers lobby for the right to fix their own tractors | News & Observer

Just some clips from the article ....

Farmers trying to fix the computers that run the machines could be in violation of the federal Digital Millennium Copyright Act. That means if a tractor stops working, the owner has no choice but to call the dealer. He can't check the system codes himself. 4 states consider requiring manufacturers to make diagnostic and technical information available to farmers, independent repair technicians.

John Deere, in a 2014 comment to the U.S. Copyright Office, said the people who buy its tractors don't own the software that makes them run. Instead, each has an implied license for the life of the vehicle to operate the vehicle.

In some cases, the company said, software could be subject to third-party restrictions and accessing it could violate copyright, trade secret or contractual rights.

But farmers work when they can, and every hour matters when storms, frost and mud leave them with few suitable days. A malfunctioning combine can bring the fall harvest to a standstill.

Waiting for a dealer to diagnose and fix a problem could mean hours, days or weeks lost.

saw this story yesterday on my Fox News app.

 

[clemsonfor]

Mate, there have been several threads within the past year (even month) on this topic. And it always comes down to the same thing... you are more than free to work on your own modern tractor so long as you purchase the diagnostic equipment and diagnostic programmes to do it.

Which, of course is prohibitively expensive unless you have a fleet of tractors to maintain. So, an authorised dealership/repair shop is the economically way to go.

The same holds true for modern cars & vehicles. Modern tractors are now 'catching up' with the computer managed/monitored world. Even the most inexpensive new car, today, has a computer in it for diagnostics and your 'local mechanic' has bought the equipment/programme to service it... or he/she has gone out of business.

A good tractor dealership (such as mine) have mobile repair utes, that have this diagnostic equipment onboard, in order to service their customers better and get them back to work.

For those who adamantly want to maintain their own tractors above simple fluid changes and adjustments; feel free to purchase a 'bare bones' tractor.

so the aftermarket is free to make scanners? Like the post after yours I quote BM maverick brings the same thing up , autos are easy to get scanners for and its the same software after 86, I can get a Bluetooth reader for less than $10 to work for vehicles and today there is all kinds of info I can pull out of that vehicle. Now unless I buy a very expensive programmer I can not modify or change anything though.

Maybe its just an economy of scale and there are way less tractors so no aftermarket is messing with them...but it sounds like the problem is every manufacturer is using proprietary software unlike autos where its all basically the same code with small variances in what they mean and a few brand specific codes. But because they all have to have the same code of say a misfire on cylinder 3 the software to use to read I guess is generic and there is a million and one places to find what the codes mean online.

 

[bmaverick]

I understand what you're saying but (there's always a but, eh? ) we're comparing apples & oranges. A regular modern, even post '86, road vehicle doesn't have the same computer controls/sensors as a large HP modern tractor. I would hazard a pretty good guess that a modern OEM produced high-performance street legal V8 'muscle car' or a luxury SUV that, amongst other things, can park itself have computers that you're not allowed to muck around with.

Your tractor & mine don't fall into the category (HP wise) that the commercial farmer uses. And that's just the tractor... the article provided states in the second paragraph: "They have air conditioning, guidance systems, satellite radio and more sensors than he can shake a corn cob at, all kept running by computer systems and software." (emphasis mine) These sensors, computer controled systems and guidance systems are intellectual property of the OEM who've spent a lot of research & development time and dollars incorporating these features into their products (combines, planters, fertilisers, etc... too).

Which would be an incredible cost savings to unscrupulous manufacturers if they could simply pinch/copy them for their own use. THIS is one of the main reasons why the 'codes' aren't available.

You'll notice that your provided article, and all of the other articles that have brought this subject up, specifically mentions John Deere. It's because they are the only US owned manufacturer of these high-end tractors and self-propelled implements... so they'd be the only ones that can be complained about. All the other "Big Boy" agricultural OEMs are foreign (head office wise).

All I can say is, you are missing the forest and not seeing the trees on this one. All that you have written is a direct miss on my points.

Have you recently visited a Mahindra, Club Cadet, LS, John Deere, New Holland, Kobuta, etc dealers of SCUT and CUT tractors ??? It's almost night and day from the 2008 models to the 2016 models. Sensors and computer galore!
If a speed sensor goes out on the 4WD, you got to trailer your CUT to a dealer to get the diagnosis $$ and then the parts $$$. Before, we relied on simple drive splines and mechanical controls. These tractors now have power Control Modules. Even the gas units are using direct fuel rails and injectors. It's not just the Big Boy toys in farming with computer controls. Like I stated, those of us who are homesteaders on a few acres of 8+ can't afford the added costs. If it's computer controlled and we have no diagnostic tools, just buying parts blindly will have us forgo getting anything newer. One of my co-workers has a Mahindra. He's had it new since February. It's been to the shop three times for things that a common mechanic can debug. Good for him, he has a warranty. My other co-worker has a 2013 Kobuta L3301HST, bough used with very very low hours. He has no warranty. Guess what, I know now why the guy sold it. COMPUTER related problems.

I love my older Yanmar. Thought about getting a Club Cadet Yanmar recently. So, I went window shopping. I'm not impressed with today's tractors of plastic hoods, looking mean (ugly) and all of this electrical stuff beyond just having lights, a horn, and a starter. Relays, switches, sensors etc. Just looking at the cost to replace in labor hours the pressure sensor for the lift arms is not practical. Why would a tractor need that on a CUT?

Ah, after reading you posting, I just caught your info ...

A good tractor dealership (such as mine) have mobile repair utes, that have this diagnostic equipment onboard, in order to service their customers better and get them back to work.

You are a dealer, thus your interest is to keep the higher costs up for us homesteaders. You are not our solution, you are the costly middleman. Ahhhhhhh I only want the parts store counter or online parts places like Rockauto. In tractor sense, that's Fredricks, StevensTractor, Weaver, etc. I don't need a dealer.

 

[sd455dan]

Car & vehicles built after 1986 with computers have OBD-II codes that any person with a mere $49USD can self diagnose on the cheap. There are thousands of these codes and it's soooo simple to find the info relating to this standard codes anywhere on the web.

As for tractors my dear friend, it's not the case. Thus, modern tractors have become anti-competitive and anti-friendly to farmers, homesteaders and rural ownership.

Agree with you on the simplicity and non cpu controlled tractors being my choice (also what I can afford) if something does need work parts are available and it is nice to be able to do it yourself:thumbsup:

I think it is a power grab by JD - and may cost them in the long run if other brands are available that do not have an agreement that only leases use of code.





Just a slight correction- OBD2 did not go into effect until 1996 although some vehicles had it in 1995, Around 1986 OBD1 was used by GM and some others.

Many had their own proprietary systems that were short lived , but in 1996 All vehicles sold in the US had to be OBD2 compliant although the protocols vary a bit.

ps. not sure wagtail is a dealer??
I think he could have meant that the dealer he buys from has equipment and mobile repair equipped utes that have taken good care of his tractor(s)

 

[California]

Love my elderly Yanmars. (see sig photo below).

You could remove every bit of their (simple) electrical system except the starter and they would run fine after jumping another vehicle's battery to the starter.

There's no electric fuel lift pump, no fuel solenoid, and the compression release does most of what glow plugs are needed for.

A farmer earning his living needs same-day dealer field service if he's down. That's expensive. My units have never needed anything I can't buy mailorder from Hoye, they've never been off the farm (orchard), never saw a professional mechanic. They were designed to be owner-maintained.


Added - My favorite part of recommended maintenance for the YM240 is really Old School (paraphrasing): "Use only a wooden stick and mutton tallow to clean the injector orifice". Yes, really.

 

[CCWKen]

Checking your own car wasn't always free. I think it was during the OBD-I period that the car makers were forced to supply the error/diagnostic codes by the Feds after numerous law suits. Everybody was suing the car makers--From private owners to secondary auto repair shops. The Feds stepped in and made the method standard for OBD-II along with the communication standard. The Federal law already exists for auto makers. I don't see how JD is going to slip this by. Perhaps the law should be updated to include all electronically controlled engines.

And it ain't always "easy" to get the diagnostic code off the internet and fix a problem yourself. At least not without a set of very expensive manuals and updates. Just because you have the code doesn't mean a thing if you don't have the experience to know that a particular code can be set due to several other conditions. Some of these conditions can seem totally unrelated to the diagnostic code. Too many folks just throw new parts at the problem even when they have the code. But, I for one, would like to have the option to know the code and make the decision of where, when and how it's fixed.