Gear drive vs hydro

[patrick_g]

Interesting comparison. My 27.5 pto hp HST tractor is about 5/8th the hp of my TLB 12 speed gear tractor. The TLB is about 9000 pounds where the hst is about 4500. The TLB has a 20 cuft bucket on the front and a 10 cuft bucket on the hoe. The hst has an 8.8 cuft bucket.

Can you guess which one is able to move more dirt in less time? Need a hint? It's ain't the TLB.

Part of that is the 2wd vs 4wd. But a majority is the functionality of the hst being able to go from forward to backward while dumping the bucket and repositioning it for the next go round. It's harder to shift gears, steer clutch and position the bucket all at the same time. Yet, taking out the need for the hand to be on the gear shift and FEL stick makes it possible. (HST). It is also the ability to ease into the pile and exactly match lifting, roll back with forward pressure. It's also having full hydraulic pressure & flow as I ease into said pile. My foot throttle on the gear tractor can give me more flow, but a too fast of ground speed. Some have said they can feather the clutch. Yeah, do that 500 time a day and see how long it lasts...

But some like gears, some like powershift (glideshift) and some like hst. That's why they make multiple types, there is no one perfect transmission for all people for all uses.

Yet another KILLJOY injecting reality into this thread.

I can and have loaded more dirt per unit of time with my 39 HP HST than 50HP geared tractors with operators having MUCH MORE EXPERIENCE. It sort of confuses the gear heads when I did it. I had to show the owner's manual to one guy who would not believe I only had 39HP.

I think the "old fashioned" machine occupies the operator so much that he feels he is really doing a lot while the HST does more faster with less effort filling a dump trailer, working sand, gravel, or dirt from a to b if a and b are not hundreds of feet apart.

If you have to transport a bucket of material several hundred feet then a larger bucket (on just about any tractor with any tranny might win the day but less than 100 feet between fill and dump and it is tough to beat an HST.

Sorry if this small dose of reality intrudes on anyone's pre or ill conceived hypothetical notions.

I am not on a religious crusade and have no ego at stake regarding what sort of tranny anyone else has as it has no effect on me. Of course I don't care what kind someone else prefers or for what reason real or imagined they prefer it. HST works for me and I have operated geared tractors and found them inferior for my purposes.

Yeah, that's the way I like it uh huh, uh huh!

Pat

 

[jake98]

edit...

 

[jake98]

Don't let your kids run your artistic motion, George. I don't want to sound like a drone but u gotta set up your own @ pandora
gotta love it
jake

 

[jake98]

Jake98

 

[MossRoad]

I don't think there is any doubt that an HST will move more material in the loader from one point to another than a gear tractor of the same size. And in commercial applications where time is money that would be important.

For how many of us is that a significant issue?

It is for me. I enjoy my time with my family much more than I enjoy seat time in my tractor.

 

[Soundguy]

Think about it like this too.. if you have 2 tractors with the same eng hp.. then you can also look at the hst's drawbar hp as compaired to te gear tranny, as well as the pto hp.. etc.

That pump runs continously.. that and the fluid coupling are where the hp go off too.

soundguy

You've got that right, but it is more confusing than what you've just explained.

As you say, there is some loss of HP at the PTO, but not much.

There is no (or trivial) loss of HP at the engine.

But I would assume that engine HP is measured at the flywheel or some point shy of where the wheels contact the ground, which is where it matters and what we never get specs on.

I'd guess, but might be wrong, that given the same engine HP a geared tractor is going to transfer more of that HP to the ground than an HST.

So if I'm right, its not just a simple matter of what your PTO has to turn.

But finally, as it has been stated so many times, the real issue for the vast number of us who do not have unlimited incomes is not how much HST skims HP from any given machine, but how much more HP you can BUY with a geared vs a hydro tractor.

 

[Soundguy]

Hey, where is the speedometer take off on a tractor, anyhow? I don't have a speedometer on my little PT425 and I don't believe my old IH had one, either.

depends on the tractor.. some have them off the engine.. some off of a pump.. some off of the alternator.. As you can guess those are usually tach's with a ground speed chart.. or ring on the tach to show ground speed in a gear, at a specific rpm.. etc.

sounduy

 

[Soundguy]

I would imagine 'trivial' has different meanings to different people. 1.5hp is 5% of 30hp.. 5% is starting to sound 'significant'.. while ' a couple.. IE.. 2% may not.. etc.. ). I would not want a 5% reduction in my pay, for example

soundguy

So what is the typical HP difference, something like a couple percent at most???

I'd gladly trade off a couple percent for the distinct advantages of HST.

I fail to see the implied importance of the difference.

...and Egon, what has reality to do with much of this discussion? Limiting the exchange to only those with reasonable experience on both geared and HST tractors would eliminate so much colorful opinion-expression based on (well based on ... hmm well it would eliminate a lot of baseless opinions) and reduce the entertainment index of the thread.

Pat

 

[Soundguy]

I don't think there is any doubt that an HST will move more material in the loader from one point to another than a gear tractor of the same size. And in commercial applications where time is money that would be important.

For how many of us is that a significant issue?

Good point.. and goes along with another point you made.. the price diffeence in HST vs (economy) gear.. it's not an insignificant difference.. and as you point out.. can actually buy you a larger gear tractor vs a smaller HST.

Now.. as tot he significant issue.. that is the big variable.. and applies to tasks that you intend to use said tractor on.

For instance.. take me for example... my 2 primary tractors uses are moving material and mowing.. I'd say it breaks down to 20/80.. IE.. 20$ of my time is using a tractor/loader as a powered wheel barrow. or moile crane. 80% of my seat time is mowing.

clearly... having more pto hp fit my bill.. add to that that 2wd was fine for me in pancake flat florida.. tus etting me een more hp.. that let me step into a larger class of mowing machine.. IE.. utility and small ag tractors.. and their mowers.. like 10-15'. that really saved me some time..

For me.. paying for hst, and perhaps 4wd .. while it might have made my loader dutioes cool... the rest of the time I'd be suffering mowing with maybee a ?? 6' mower.. and taking 40% to 150% longer to mow.. etc.

for -me-... the choice ws clear.. buy large 2wd economy gear tractor vs feature encrusted smaller hst 4wd tractor. ( oh yeah.. and get a ( or two or three ) cheap 2wd gear loader tractor too!

soundguy

 

[Soundguy]

Here's more killjoy for you... the common 'task' being used here to describe how much 'better' HST's are than gear tractors always gets tossed around as 'loader work'.. IE.. the 39hp hst moving more dirt than the 50hp gear.

Kick that over to a different task just to be fair.

Will your 39hp hst tote a 10' mower? Your 50hp might.. an 8' anyway...

I'll bet that 50hp geard mows more grass than that 39hp hst... Kinda kicks over to that argument N80 was making... money for the hydro kicks you into a smaller tractor.. smaller tractor uses smaller implements.. smaller implements .. in the mowing world, mean less foot of cut... thus.. more time needed due to a smaller mower. ( wow.. this discussion could have lots of permutations.. IE.. throw in used vs new on the gear vs hst.. and the results skew considerably.. IE.. one of my 70 hp 'classic' tractors and a 10' mower probably cost much.. perahps even 'multiples' less than a 39hp hst with a mower correctly sized for it.. looking at a foot cut, per dollar spent... it gets quite interesting.. but I digress.. that's a completely moot tangent to this discussion.. )

Now... all things are not equal... if money wasn't a concern.. and you could get the larger tractor with the hst.. and needed it.. IE.. lots of obstacles or backing up.. then you are throwing a new variable that needs attention into the mix.. and then you get to decide what options are valuable vs cost.. etc.

it's not a straight clear across the board benefit.. but one of cost vs benefit.. whether tangible or percieved.

soundguy

Yet another KILLJOY injecting reality into this thread.

I can and have loaded more dirt per unit of time with my 39 HP HST than 50HP geared tractors with operators having MUCH MORE EXPERIENCE. It sort of confuses the gear heads when I did it. I had to show the owner's manual to one guy who would not believe I only had 39HP.

I think the "old fashioned" machine occupies the operator so much that he feels he is really doing a lot while the HST does more faster with less effort filling a dump trailer, working sand, gravel, or dirt from a to b if a and b are not hundreds of feet apart.

If you have to transport a bucket of material several hundred feet then a larger bucket (on just about any tractor with any tranny might win the day but less than 100 feet between fill and dump and it is tough to beat an HST.

Sorry if this small dose of reality intrudes on anyone's pre or ill conceived hypothetical notions.

I am not on a religious crusade and have no ego at stake regarding what sort of tranny anyone else has as it has no effect on me. Of course I don't care what kind someone else prefers or for what reason real or imagined they prefer it. HST works for me and I have operated geared tractors and found them inferior for my purposes.

Yeah, that's the way I like it uh huh, uh huh!

Pat