beginning of the end for some local dealers??

[dave1949]

Sorry Dave-----I am not calling anyone a BILLY THE KID just trying to prove a point that our buying patterns will ultimately cost each and every one of us in the tractor more money in the end

I understand you were making a point. For some, we don't have a lot of choices locally. My nearest Ag dealer is a Deere & Kubota place, colors I don't happen to own. I did purchase my snow blower and chipper from them, and maybe someday I will buy a tractor there - new tractor gods willing

My NH was purchased before we moved, that dealer closed about 5 years ago and they would be a 2 1/2 hr trip one way if they were still in business.

I'm sure running a profitable tractor dealership is a different game than it used to be before CUTS and SCUTS. Think about how their client base has changed. Shrinking large Ag market and growing small utility/hobby market in many areas. Like many other businesses, it's adapt or wither I guess.

The nature of CUTS and SCUTS is more like a very expensive tool. They aren't being made to last forever and when used to their full capacity - have a definite designed lifetime for many of the components. They are becoming an expendable commodity in that regard. Not like the older heavy equipment that a person farmed half their life with.
Dave.

 

[Soundguy]

planned obselescence.. sounds good for short term for profit.. but for long term global sustainability.. it is a step backwards.. even if recycling tech was near 100%.. the energy expended in making, reclaiming, and remaking something is a waste, vs making, and maintaining something.

the steering boxes on my old fords are easilly rebuildable.. I looked over the diagrams of some of the later model cut's and was kinda surprised to find the boxes not designed to be rebuilt.. IE.. no replaceable bushings.. etc..bores cut right into the housing.. etc..
and that's just a limited example

soundguy

 

[schmism]

planned obselescence.. sounds good for short term for profit..

You have to know were to draw the line between planned obsolescence and design life span.

In a world were the avg car owner doesnt keep a car more than 5 years... the avg farmer doesnt keep a tractor more than 10. Whats the point of designing the items with lifespans that measure in 50-60 years?

What advantage does it give "durable goods" manufactures to design something that last 10 times longer than the org owner intends to keep it. The manufacture sees no benefit after the first sale.

If an durable good is tossed out 1/10th the way through its designed life span, what difference does it make to the "sustainability" of it all when both items (the still functioning "old" one and the wore out 5 year old one) are sitting in the landfill next to each other?

So if thats the case then one has to look at the resources that goes into makeing each item on the front end, which also translates into overall price which is what drives American buyers.

 

[Soundguy]

In a world were the avg car owner doesnt keep a car more than 5 years... the avg farmer doesnt keep a tractor more than 10. Whats the point of designing the items with lifespans that measure in 50-60 years?.

10ys.. I don't think that's an accurate # ( seems way low ball ) except for people that buy fix and sell, or buy a machine for a specific task.. like land clearing, then sell it to get their regular maintenance machine.

What advantage does it give "durable goods" manufactures to design something that last 10 times longer than the org owner intends to keep it. The manufacture sees no benefit after the first sale..

IMHO.. many owners will keep it while it works then toss it when it doesn't work, or becomes a hassle or too expensive to keep it working. I know some owners will use the 'new car syndrome'.. but at least what I see locally is alot of people soaking al the good they can out of what they got.. especially now in bad economic times

If an durable good is tossed out 1/10th the way through its designed life span, what difference does it make to the "sustainability" of it all when both items (the still functioning "old" one and the wore out 5 year old one) are sitting in the landfill next to each other?.

if it takes 8 material and resource units ( fictitious measurement ) to make a throw away item, and 10 units to make a durable one. and the durable one lasts 3-5 times as long as the disposable one, and a user is going to need the item during the entire time... then in the long run, less resources are used up from the finite supply we have on the planet. sure.. recycle... right now we really.. hardly recycle very well. post consumer products that could be reclaimed vs what is, is a huge disparity. Even if we were recycling 3-4 times as good as we are and even approaching 90-100%.. then you still have the resource cost of the recycling itself. IE.. if you have to make 3-4 of the disposables to last as long as the durable one, and given that you could 100% recycle the materials from the disposable one.. then you still have the cost of each recycling to factor in.. IE.. a net LOSS of resources.. IE.. waste.

I predict a time when we will be 'mining' landfills to recover lost resource materials. might be past my lifetime.. but I don't think it's unreasonable to expect it in the next 100 years.

So if thats the case then one has to look at the resources that goes into makeing each item on the front end, which also translates into overall price which is what drives American buyers.

that's where the big picture I aluded too in my previous comes into play.

do you want to pay X$ for an item you have to repalce every 5 years.. or XX$ for one that lasts 3-4 times as long, given that you will be using the item for the entire duration. while initial cost is higher.. overall cost is lower. That's my entire point.. companies and consumers are being extremely myopic in their financial views..and that is impacting resource usage. cheap and disposable works in the short term.. in the long term you take a hit on sustainability due to increased resource use and loss.

it's no wonder they are finally offering college degrees in sustaniable living.. heck.. should be a required pre-course in high school to graduate.. right along with some more economics and family living classes.

soundguy

 

[dave1949]

do you want to pay X$ for an item you have to repalce every 5 years.. or XX$ for one that lasts 3-4 times as long, given that you will be using the item for the entire duration. while initial cost is higher.. overall cost is lower. That's my entire point.. companies and consumers are being extremely myopic in their financial views..and that is impacting resource usage. cheap and disposable works in the short term.. in the long term you take a hit on sustainability due to increased resource use and loss.

it's no wonder they are finally offering college degrees in sustaniable living.. heck.. should be a required pre-course in high school to graduate.. right along with some more economics and family living classes.

soundguy

Good points about recycling percentages and inherent recycle costs.

One thing about making something that costs 2X or more to make it last longer, the price of entry becomes so high, very few can afford it when new. That will make the used prices high also.

For the consumer/user, that's not a great choice - no equipment vs equipment that is unaffordable. One way I look at it, is I spent $X to get something accomplished - and it happens to be the least expensive way I could do it. Sure, I would love to own something bigger, built tougher, etc., it just wouldn't be affordable for me, and probably the same equation for many CUT owners.

The only way I could end up with a construction backhoe like a JD 3xx or 4xx for example, would be to repair/rebuild a used one. That isn't something I know how to do or am equipped to do for one thing, and secondly, I need to get work done with the tractor; not work on the tractor. When my tractor work is done, I might have time for a project like that. At that point, it doesn't make a lot of sense to spend the money though.

An alternative approach may be to buy a used unit that isn't total scrap iron and have it hauled to a shop and have it refurbed to a reasonable level. Total dollars out the door may have been about the same and if the refurb was done well and warranteed, a better machine in the end. If I knew then what I know now, that may be what I would have chosen to do :laughing:

It wouldn't be trailerable behind a pickup though, that would have been a problem for me for a couple of years between properties.

You make good points though.
Dave.

 

[Soundguy]

or.. hire the work done while you are repairing or refurbing that used one.. maybee pick up a new personal skill in the process.

I know it's a compromise.. but eventually, disposability will deplete usable resources. cost to find more harder to refine resources will go up, and cost to recycle previously used resources will still be there.

disposability and low entrance cost is just front ending a rebate, the excess future cost gets tossed to the back of the line. like I said.. short term.. no big deal.. long term.. somebody has to pay the piper...


soundguy

 

[AKfish]

I predict a time when we will be 'mining' landfills to recover lost resource materials. might be past my lifetime.. but I don't think it's unreasonable to expect it in the next 100 years.

that's where the big picture I aluded too in my previous comes into play.

do you want to pay X$ for an item you have to repalce every 5 years.. or XX$ for one that lasts 3-4 times as long, given that you will be using the item for the entire duration. while initial cost is higher.. overall cost is lower. That's my entire point.. companies and consumers are being extremely myopic in their financial views..and that is impacting resource usage. cheap and disposable works in the short term.. in the long term you take a hit on sustainability due to increased resource use and loss.

it's no wonder they are finally offering college degrees in sustaniable living.. heck.. should be a required pre-course in high school to graduate.. right along with some more economics and family living classes.

soundguy

Well said... I've considered the day that we "mine" those enormous earthen-capped landfills, too! We just might see that in our lifetimes..

Stopped in to visit 1 of 2 NH dealership's in Alaska a couple weeks ago. Wanted to window shop for a cab tractor and buy some parts for my NH 254 rake/tedder and some parts for my Kuhn disc mower (the NH parts will cross reference for the Kuhn).

The power's that be - yanked the dealership!! Nothing on the lot to see... some rental construction equipment; no NH stuff at all!

Kid tells me that the new dealer won't have ANY NH equip until NEXT year!! There's mower blades, teeth and nuts and bolts and nobody has any idea what any of it's for! Nobody there over 30 and when I asked about part's for a Kuhn -- they looked at each other like I was talking about somebody's girlfriend!!

Thank God for the Internet...

AKfish

 

[redneckford]

or.. hire the work done while you are repairing or refurbing that used one.. maybee pick up a new personal skill in the process.

I know it's a compromise.. but eventually, disposability will deplete usable resources. cost to find more harder to refine resources will go up, and cost to recycle previously used resources will still be there.

disposability and low entrance cost is just front ending a rebate, the excess future cost gets tossed to the back of the line. like I said.. short term.. no big deal.. long term.. somebody has to pay the piper...


soundguy

Those goats do a nice job of cutting the grass but they seem to want to eat after all the grass is gone------problems problems problems!!!! even more problems when they get out into the neighbors flower bed-----anyone seen the keys to my 8N?????

 

[Soundguy]

Well said... I've considered the day that we "mine" those enormous earthen-capped landfills, too! We just might see that in our lifetimes..

yep.. might be sooner than we think.. depends on needs, cost of reclaiming vs cost of new discovery.

Stopped in to visit 1 of 2 NH dealership's in Alaska a couple weeks ago. Wanted to window shop for a cab tractor and buy some parts for my NH 254 rake/tedder and some parts for my Kuhn disc mower (the NH parts will cross reference for the Kuhn).

The power's that be - yanked the dealership!! Nothing on the lot to see... some rental construction equipment; no NH stuff at all!

Kid tells me that the new dealer won't have ANY NH equip until NEXT year!! There's mower blades, teeth and nuts and bolts and nobody has any idea what any of it's for! Nobody there over 30 and when I asked about part's for a Kuhn -- they looked at each other like I was talking about somebody's girlfriend!!

Thank God for the Internet...

AKfish

yep.. that's rough.

same here.. my local dealer is selling stuff then not restocking.. 'normal' shelf items are disappearing... getting scarry.

I think I need to mosey on over to the other dealer much longer away and shake some hands and get established there as a backup for when the day the new owner runs the closer dealership into the ground and starts digging..

soundguy

 

[Soundguy]

Those goats do a nice job of cutting the grass but they seem to want to eat after all the grass is gone------problems problems problems!!!! even more problems when they get out into the neighbors flower bed-----anyone seen the keys to my 8N?????

goagts sheep and horses.. all seem to be darn hard on grass.. those darn lips and lotsa teeth.

cows are a tad easier imho.



soundguy