Oil & Fuel Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel Fuel

   / Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel Fuel #41  
Good question. The answer is: adding ATF to ULSD could actually damage modern diesel emissions components. The post recommending ATF as a ULSD additive should be deleted.

There are some people who think ATF is some sort of cure all miracle elixir and they want to add it to everything except breakfast .
 
   / Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel Fuel
  • Thread Starter
#42  
so how is it possible that about 8 yrs ago my aunt says hey your uncle has a fuel barrel with diesel fuel in it, do you all need it for burn piles. i said he died about 10 yrs ago and she said yes .........he was sick the last 2 yrs and confined indoors so the fuel was AT LEAST 12 yrs old minimum - I said well we could use that old fuel for brush fires etc and get rid of it for you.

Well, the 300 gallon stand barrel was 3/4 full, we got at least 200 gallons out of it. we got the fuel out and looked at it and it was that old oily diesel I grew up on - it wasn't soured or nasty and we put some in a glass miracle whip jar and it looked good, we used every bit of it in my buddies tractor and never had an issue with it, how come this new stuff is so sensitive to things or were we just lucky that stuff had been in that barrel for 12 to 15 yrs and it was still good?

"how come this new stuff is so sensitive to things...?"
One of the reasons I started this thread in this Owning/Operating forum was to share my article and raise the level of awareness of the importance of ULSD fuel quality in modern HPCR direct injection diesel engines. These new diesel engines utilize technology far, far advanced from that used even 10 years ago. When you notice a leak, you check it with safety glasses, gloves and a 2-3 foot strip of cardboard because the pump pressure is so high (20,000 - 30,000 psi) that an invisible leak can inject a load of diesel fuel deep into your skin before you even realize it. The pump pistons & fuel injector nozzles are high-precision parts; the pump pistons are so precise that they can't be held by hand for measuring because the heat from a human hand will significantly affect the measurement! In terms of the fuel and emissions systems, these HPRC engines share little in common with older diesels and that includes the fuel: ULSD.
 
   / Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel Fuel #43  
"how come this new stuff is so sensitive to things...?"
One of the reasons I started this thread in this Owning/Operating forum was to share my article and raise the level of awareness of the importance of ULSD fuel quality in modern HPCR direct injection diesel engines. These new diesel engines utilize technology far, far advanced from that used even 10 years ago. When you notice a leak, you check it with safety glasses, gloves and a 2-3 foot strip of cardboard because the pump pressure is so high (20,000 - 30,000 psi) that an invisible leak can inject a load of diesel fuel deep into your skin before you even realize it. The pump pistons & fuel injector nozzles are high-precision parts; the pump pistons are so precise that they can't be held by hand for measuring because the heat from a human hand will significantly affect the measurement! In terms of the fuel and emissions systems, these HPRC engines share little in common with older diesels and that includes the fuel: ULSD.

Ouch! 5000 psi from a paint sprayer will cut you.

I read your article and the Chevron piece. I read some other stuff. It wasn't exactly good news. The model of newest machine I work with was discontinued in 2002. I had no clue stuff was so fiddly now.

If I upgrade to a spin on two filter 10 mic and 2 micron rig, would that be enough? I could regularly pump diesel into the other fitting on the tank even when I don't need to fill anything. It would be like polishing the diesel, right?
 
   / Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel Fuel #44  
Ouch! 5000 psi from a paint sprayer will cut you.

I read your article and the Chevron piece. I read some other stuff. It wasn't exactly good news. The model of newest machine I work with was discontinued in 2002. I had no clue stuff was so fiddly now.

If I upgrade to a spin on two filter 10 mic and 2 micron rig, would that be enough? I could regularly pump diesel into the other fitting on the tank even when I don't need to fill anything. It would be like polishing the diesel, right?

Yes, it will be better then most fuel you can purchase at a truck stop.
While the new common rail systems are a bit fussier about fuel quality then the older mechanical injection systems they are not rocket science.
This new ULSD is going into the same pumping systems, tanks and dispensing equipment as was used 10 years ago.
The final filters at your service station if you are lucky are 10-25 micron and not changed that often.
Look at the water dirt and grit that gets introduced to all the new diesel pickups when being refilled, that's why we have filters prior to our injection pumps.
Yes, the new fuels does not have the sulfur for a high pressure lubricant.
Very few people that I know of have that much info from there fuel suppliers,
I have never seen cloud point info at any pump were I have filled my pickup up at.
 
   / Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel Fuel #45  
Yes, it will be better then most fuel you can purchase at a truck stop.
While the new common rail systems are a bit fussier about fuel quality then the older mechanical injection systems they are not rocket science.
This new ULSD is going into the same pumping systems, tanks and dispensing equipment as was used 10 years ago.
The final filters at your service station if you are lucky are 10-25 micron and not changed that often.
Look at the water dirt and grit that gets introduced to all the new diesel pickups when being refilled, that's why we have filters prior to our injection pumps.
Yes, the new fuels does not have the sulfur for a high pressure lubricant.
Very few people that I know of have that much info from there fuel suppliers,
I have never seen cloud point info at any pump were I have filled my pickup up at.

My understanding is each source of crude yields a slightly different batch of products. Stuff gets mixed in common tanks, pipelines, tanks, transports, tanks again, transports again, my tank, and my equipment. No way anyone is testing often enough close enough to the "last tank" or "last transport" to do me much good.

What I need is some foolproof way to guarantee cleanliness and lubricity. Filters (esp. Spin on) are cheap. Small tanks for more frequent rotation is cheap. Inconvenient but cheap. Replacing the old injector parts was expensive. I shudder to think about the picky new equipment.

Would 2% biodiesel and frequent 10 mic/2 mic filtering reasonably prevent problems and allow for different batches and blends? Cold temps are not really a problem here. Humidity? Yes. Dirt and heat and age I have some control over.
 
   / Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel Fuel #46  
My understanding is each source of crude yields a slightly different batch of products. Stuff gets mixed in common tanks, pipelines, tanks, transports, tanks again, transports again, my tank, and my equipment. No way anyone is testing often enough close enough to the "last tank" or "last transport" to do me much good.

What I need is some foolproof way to guarantee cleanliness and lubricity. Filters (esp. Spin on) are cheap. Small tanks for more frequent rotation is cheap. Inconvenient but cheap. Replacing the old injector parts was expensive. I shudder to think about the picky new equipment.

Would 2% biodiesel and frequent 10 mic/2 mic filtering reasonably prevent problems and allow for different batches and blends? Cold temps are not really a problem here. Humidity? Yes. Dirt and heat and age I have some control over.

Are you even having problems or are you just preemptively worrying?

I have not had a single fuel problem in any of my modern diesel motors that are common rail.

Dirt is the least of my worries...it's water that will kill a high pressure common rail faster than anything. That is easily solved with buying from a high volume seller and using treatments to emulsify the water...

These High Pressure fuel systems are really not that fragile...
 
   / Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel Fuel #47  
I think what I really want is a perfect for all blends and situations snake oil. Lubricity is my main concern. Fungicide is a distant second. I think 10mic/2 mic filtering will fix all the other problems.
 
   / Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel Fuel #48  
I think what I really want is a perfect for all blends and situations snake oil. Lubricity is my main concern. Fungicide is a distant second. I think 10mic/2 mic filtering will fix all the other problems.

Why is Lubricity your main concern? Common rail use Piezo injectors, which have no internal piston that needs lubricating. The high pressure oil injection systems, found on CAT and Navistar engines needed the lubricating properties, and even those are not having issues with the low sulfur diesel.

I think you should do what you can to mitigate the water issue if you're buying from low volume sellers, otherwise there is no need to worry.
 
   / Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel Fuel #49  
Are you even having problems or are you just preemptively worrying?

I have not had a single fuel problem in any of my modern diesel motors that are common rail.

Dirt is the least of my worries...it's water that will kill a high pressure common rail faster than anything. That is easily solved with buying from a high volume seller and using treatments to emulsify the water...

These High Pressure fuel systems are really not that fragile...

Preemptive worrying is a chronic hobby of mine. I can buy nice toys but unexpected major repairs take years to really recover. The current toy is about a 1998 (?) Bobcat. It has had increasing common and expensive repairs but nailing down the exact cause is difficult. My reading about other owners problems and concerns is alarming and hopelessly complicated my search. But, depending on buying order, the tractor purchase is two to seven years out. I have time to not rush into something.

I want to move away from the Bobcat except for high power tasks. Repairing turf and swinging my rear-end into stuff will not be missed.
 
   / Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel Fuel #50  
Yes, water is the biggest concern. I buy my bulk diesel (off-road) from a local Chevron distributor. My tank has a regular debris filter (which also has token water separating abilities) and a water filter. All my equipment has additional filtration abilities for water: interestingly, and I had a bit of a go-round with the dealer, my Kioti is the ONLY piece of equipment that I've found water in its fuel (trapped in the fuel filter); thousands of gallons of on-road in my diesel cars and I've never found a trace of water in their filters.

CR also uses high pressure pumps to charge the fuel rails. Such pumps, owing to their high pressure, require very tight tolerances. After lots of reading on CR failures on first generation CR VWs I am convinced that what was killing them was water: pressures would flash water and cause hot spots that would expand metals, thus causing pump failures. I'm sure that debris doesn't do them any good either, but, and this is my take, this is more likely to cause degradation of performance than a more instantaneous (shrapnel-producing) failure.

It was my understanding that most manufacturers didn't make recommendations for fuel additives. One can use this either FOR or AGAINST adding additives (for whatever reason).
 
 
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