Pole building foundation question

[Egon]

I have never heard of the crushed rock method up north. Water will get into the rock and freeze, thaw will make that part of the foundation move around. I'd not do the rock method.

Crushed Rock drains well. The freeze will not be a problem.

 

[Egon]

I can't imagine a worse machine to compact soil then a compact skid steer. Nothing with tracks should be used to compact soil. Tracks spread the weight of the machine over a large area so it floats on the soil.

There is a myth that tires, tracks or so forth provide proper compaction. Sounds good, looks presentable but may approach 90% proctor which is far from desirable.

 

[LouNY]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...tire-rollers&usg=AOvVaw1KDh3_eFWeRvdpveMJlMct

 

[EddieWalker]

There is a myth that tires, tracks or so forth provide proper compaction. Sounds good, looks presentable but may approach 90% proctor which is far from desirable.

There are machines designed for compaction that use tires.

A home owner can do a decent job with the front tires of a tractor if they build up the soil in small lifts, and work it over and over again, if the moisture in the soil is correct.

Ideally, you need a machine that vibrates, has a lot of weight with a small footprint, the proper moisture content for the soil, and lifts based on the size of the machine doing the compaction.

Nobody can get compaction with a machine with tracks. They can make it look pretty, and it's gonna be compacted enough to walk on it, but if you drive anything over that soil, it's obvious that it's not compacted.

 

[4570Man]

There are machines designed for compaction that use tires.

A home owner can do a decent job with the front tires of a tractor if they build up the soil in small lifts, and work it over and over again, if the moisture in the soil is correct.

Ideally, you need a machine that vibrates, has a lot of weight with a small footprint, the proper moisture content for the soil, and lifts based on the size of the machine doing the compaction.

Nobody can get compaction with a machine with tracks. They can make it look pretty, and it's gonna be compacted enough to walk on it, but if you drive anything over that soil, it's obvious that it's not compacted.

Have you actually tried compacting anything with a tracked skid and and a bucket full of dirt? Done properly it works reasonably well. The ground pressure is actually way higher than simple math would imply. For starters the front roller is carrying most of the load. It’s not evenly applied over the whole track. Second the rollers pound the track pads into the ground that brings the load to a fairly high psi. No it’s not a vibratory roller but it’s good enough for most jobs. I’ve driven cement trucks and dump trucks over jobs I’ve skid steer compacting and they barley leave a track. I think we can all agree nothing beats a vibratory roller. Short of that driving a loaded dump truck back and forth would be the next best option. But a tracked skid steer will do equally as good as anything else in the same weight class.

 

[deezler]

Good advice in here so far on best concrete foundations and compaction techniques. I am confused why you are calling it a pole barn when you want to build walls atop a full concrete foundation. This would be better termed as "stick framing" than as a pole barn.

The strength of a pole building comes from having uber-treated 6x6 posts going 4 feet (or more) down into well compacted or virgin soil, every 8 feet around the perimeter of the building.

Curveball: why not just hire a landscaper/excavating contractor to build you a full level dirt pad (at least 10' bigger than the building on all sides), properly compacted in 6" lifts or less, and let it sit for a year. Re-compact it and then you have a stable pad ready to build a conventional pole barn atop.

 

[Egon]

There are machines designed for compaction that use tires.

A home owner can do a decent job with the front tires of a tractor if they build up the soil in small lifts, and work it over and over again, if the moisture in the soil is correct.

Ideally, you need a machine that vibrates, has a lot of weight with a small footprint, the proper moisture content for the soil, and lifts based on the size of the machine doing the compaction.

Nobody can get compaction with a machine with tracks. They can make it look pretty, and it's gonna be compacted enough to walk on it, but if you drive anything over that soil, it's obvious that it's not compacted.

There are machines designed for compaction that use tires.

A home owner can do a decent job with the front tires of a tractor if they build up the soil in small lifts, and work it over and over again, if the moisture in the soil is correct.

Ideally, you need a machine that vibrates, has a lot of weight with a small footprint, the proper moisture content for the soil, and lifts based on the size of the machine doing the compaction.

Nobody can get compaction with a machine with tracks. They can make it look pretty, and it's gonna be compacted enough to walk on it, but if you drive anything over that soil, it's obvious that it's not compacted.

There are machines designed for compaction that use tires.

A home owner can do a decent job with the front tires of a tractor if they build up the soil in small lifts, and work it over and over again, if the moisture in the soil is correct.

Ideally, you need a machine that vibrates, has a lot of weight with a small footprint, the proper moisture content for the soil, and lifts based on the size of the machine doing the compaction.

Nobody can get compaction with a machine with tracks. They can make it look pretty, and it's gonna be compacted enough to walk on it, but if you drive anything over that soil, it's obvious that it's not compacted.

Yes, rubber tired compactors are available. Many different types For different materials. They work well in areas that would suffer damage from tracks or the steel lugs of some of the compactors.The tires are designed for compaction. Much different than the ordinary tractor tire.Some are set up so tire pressures can be varied and they may have water tanks to spray the tires.

As for ordinary tire/track compaction about 90% percent of proctor is what will be achieved in a reasonable amount of time.

For some materials the standard high heeled ladies shoe provides excellent compaction.

 

[adlertom]

Good advice in here so far on best concrete foundations and compaction techniques. I am confused why you are calling it a pole barn when you want to build walls atop a full concrete foundation. This would be better termed as "stick framing" than as a pole barn.

I suppose that the better terminology for my post would have been "post-frame construction", which can have posts either in the ground, or anchored to a foundation.

Around here, it seems that when people talk about "stick framing", they are generally referring to construction using smaller sized boards i.e. 2x4s, etc. But perhaps the nomenclature varies in some areas.

I suspect that stick framing for my project would be more expensive than post-frame.

 

[deezler]

Ok I gotcha. Sure, you can anchor 6x6 posts atop a foundation and build a normal style pole barn that way. But I have to question why - you are making a hinge point where the posts anchor to the foundation. Just seems less sturdy. Whereas when you stick frame, which it sounds like we concur on, you have an entire 2x6 bottom plate repeatedly anchored into the foundation, and a much more sturdy box frame of a building constructed atop it.

Yes, 2x6 stick framing typically costs more than a pole building, but it's primarily because of the need for a full conventional foundation. You are doing that anyway, sounds like. I would price it out to see how much building your side walls out of standard 2x6 framing would cost, in comparison to buying expensive 6x6 poles that are now somewhat tricky to anchor to the foundation. You can still use the same roofing trusses atop a standard 2x6 framed wall. Only difference is, your building will be stronger, easier to insulate, wire, and so on.

But I would also still consider just making a big dirt pad that is somewhat larger than the building size, properly compacted in 6" lifts, and then just put your poles in the ground normally. I bet this would be cheapest overall.

 

[rademamj1]

There are machines designed for compaction that use tires.

A home owner can do a decent job with the front tires of a tractor if they build up the soil in small lifts, and work it over and over again, if the moisture in the soil is correct.

Ideally, you need a machine that vibrates, has a lot of weight with a small footprint, the proper moisture content for the soil, and lifts based on the size of the machine doing the compaction.

Nobody can get compaction with a machine with tracks. They can make it look pretty, and it's gonna be compacted enough to walk on it, but if you drive anything over that soil, it's obvious that it's not compacted.

I would never ever use any soil as a fill for a concrete foundation because of the high organics. The best choice is a select fill, which has been washed and is free of organics, and is fine grained trending mostly to a silt sized particle. You typically find these type fills in river bends where large and now exposed silt bars are deposited and the naturally washed and recovered fill is sold by truckloads. It is relatively dry to visual eyes, but it does retain water by surface adhesion on each silt particle, giving a perfect moisture content for the overall select fill.

Compaction of such a selected fill occurs very well using a typical 10,000lb tracked skid steer. But you should spread and compact with each truck delivery, not dump say 20 truck loads first and then spread and compact all of it. Even wheeled vehicles struggle greatly when that occurs, resulting in uneven compaction surfaces. Usually you can build such a foundation as fast as the trucks deliver, or about 1 to 2 days.