2350 MFWD 12V starter

   #1  
Joined
Sep 24, 2009
Messages
28
Location
Fairfield, Maine
Tractor
John Deere 2350 MFWD, John Deere 2355 MFWD
Hello,
Would anyone have any input for me regarding a hi torque gear reduction starter for my 2350 and 2355 tractors? I can find them online from many different sources and I was wondering if anyone has any experience with any particular brand. Starting has always been an issue with these tractors. Just not enough cranking amps. Both have 2 new 800CCA batteries with separate cables to each battery. 2 positive to the solenoid and 2 negative to the starter mount bolt. A third battery cures the issue but I just don't want to hang another battery on the tractor. Being a decent machinist and a good mechanic I have often wondered if I could adapt a Chrysler product 1970's vintage gear reduction starter unit....just for something to do in retirement......
Many thanks, look forward to your input

Dan
 
   #2  

Zebrafive

Super Member
Joined
Aug 5, 2010
Messages
5,460
Location
South West MI
Tractor
John Deere 2030, John Deere 6415
3 1/2 years ago I put one from DB Electrical on my JD 2030. Starts MUCH faster/easier than with the factory starter.
 
   #3  

Tx Jim

New Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2007
Messages
9,092
Location
Coyote Flats,Tx
Tractor
JD 4255/Kubota M7040 HDC
1AF
Have you tried rapidly turning steering wheel from side to side while attempting to start engine or you could install/utilize while attempting to start engine a manual or electrically operated hyd pump destroking device.

I've read good reviews on DB electrical starters.
 
   #4  

Zebrafive

Super Member
Joined
Aug 5, 2010
Messages
5,460
Location
South West MI
Tractor
John Deere 2030, John Deere 6415
1AF
Have you tried rapidly turning steering wheel from side to side while attempting to start engine or you could install/utilize while attempting to start engine a manual or electrically operated hyd pump destroking device.

I've read good reviews on DB electrical starters.
Rapidly turning the wheel did not work for me. I never added a destroke valve. The DB starter did the trick! I wish I had added it years ago. My dealer said it needed a new solenoid. That did not make any difference.
 
  
  • Thread Starter
#5  
OP
1
Joined
Sep 24, 2009
Messages
28
Location
Fairfield, Maine
Tractor
John Deere 2350 MFWD, John Deere 2355 MFWD
Turning the wheel and destroking the pump doesn't change anything.
....a little history on this tractor..... When this tractor was bought new it suffered the same issue. The dairy farmer (my neighbor) also had a JD 2940 with the same model starter. It always started fine. I seem to remember it having 750CCA or maybe even less CCA for batteries. So we swapped the starters just to prove to ourselves that the problem has to be the starter. ......Well, the 2940 turned over just fine with the 2350 starter and the 2350 acted the same way with the 2940 starter. And here I am 35 years later with the same issue. I have owned the tractor 20 years(I told the farmer I wanted to buy it if he ever wanted to sell it) and now that I am retired with the time to look at it, I would like to get ideas from everyone. As you know this certainly isn't a debilitating issue, just one that I would like to improve.
I look back at the fact that this starter spun over the 2940 well(a larger engine) and the only difference that comes to mind is that maybe the ring gear on the 2940 is larger enough it diameter that the starter has more mechanical advantage than on the 2350 ring gear. It sounds like a stretch even to me but its a thought.
My 2355 suffers this issue too but to a lesser extent....probably only because the engine is tired....15000 hrs. This issue seems to follow the 4-239 engine. I know people with 2550's and 2750's that have the same issue. I guess John Deere's answer back in the 80's and 90's was to hang a third battery next to the starter. Well, buying 2 new batteries hurts enough. I don't want to buy 3 at a time.
I would like to either build a hybrid higher kilowatt starter with "off the shelf parts" or find or build a dependable gear reduction starter with off the shelf parts.
I have a complete machine shop available to me to use and I am sure there are enough knowledgeable people on this site to throw enough ideas out that we can have a solution that can spread to the other John Deere models that just need to turn a little faster with a dependable(non Chinese) starter.
There.....my fingers are tired.....
Thank you all
 
   #6  

Zebrafive

Super Member
Joined
Aug 5, 2010
Messages
5,460
Location
South West MI
Tractor
John Deere 2030, John Deere 6415
DB Electrical starter is probably China built, but has been working better than JD starter on my JD 2030.
I still think worth a try.
 
   #7  

rScotty

Elite Member
Joined
Apr 21, 2001
Messages
4,980
Location
Rural mountains - Colorado
Tractor
Kubota M59, JD530, JD310SG. Restoring Yanmar YM165D
Hello,
Would anyone have any input for me regarding a hi torque gear reduction starter for my 2350 and 2355 tractors? I can find them online from many different sources and I was wondering if anyone has any experience with any particular brand. Starting has always been an issue with these tractors. Just not enough cranking amps. Both have 2 new 800CCA batteries with separate cables to each battery. 2 positive to the solenoid and 2 negative to the starter mount bolt. A third battery cures the issue but I just don't want to hang another battery on the tractor. Being a decent machinist and a good mechanic I have often wondered if I could adapt a Chrysler product 1970's vintage gear reduction starter unit....just for something to do in retirement......
Many thanks, look forward to your input

Dan

I've done some electric motor design. Are you sure about the third battery curing the issue? That doesn't make sense to me. Also, even with two 800CCA cranking batteries a single cable should be enough to carry any amount of amperage that a starter can use.
Arc welder ground cable is good to use for carrying high current. Lots of strands and nice flexible wire.

Some thoughts:
If you have a clamp-on DC ammeter we could see just how many amps that starter is pulling. Not sure at this point what that would tell us, but interesting. I might do that with our JD310SG so that we have a baseline. The 310 has a great big heavy diesel motor and it is designed to have two 800CCA batteries in parallel - although it starts with one just as readily.
It would also be interesting to use a clamp-on ammeter to see what the DB Electrical starter draws relative to a OEM type.
Battery quality obviously counts for a lot. I assume you have that covered.

Some basics: When you power a starter with 12 volts, the total resistance of the circuit determines how much amperage can be drawn. Adding more amp*hour capacity should not change that - which goes back to my comment on a third battery. The total resistance includes the cables & all connectors, solenoid, and starter windings. Cable, connectors, and the high current path in the solenoid should be just a couple of ohms - if that.

The main sources of high resistance that prevent the amperage from ever reaching the starter are the copper contact points internal to the solenoid, and the starter commutator-to-brush resistance.
Of these I agree with your dealer: A slow starter is usually the solenoid. And in a way that would be nice. It is easy peasy to make a better solenoid.
So first thing I would do is disassemble the solenoid and eyeball those contact points and all the heavy current carrying parts. Points get burnt, so see if cleaning them up makes a difference. If so, it could be poor alloy, but cleaning them up will still make a difference the first time you use the rebuilt solenoid.

You probably are getting some torque advantage from a lower ratio (larger) ring gear gearing. But that's harder to change. We should be able to make a starter spin that ring gear.

That's enough for now. Let me know what you think.

rScotty
 
Last edited:
   #8  

Tx Jim

New Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2007
Messages
9,092
Location
Coyote Flats,Tx
Tractor
JD 4255/Kubota M7040 HDC
1astronautfarmer
Has battery ground cables been relocated from attaching to tractor frame to attaching to starter mounting bolt or engine block?

FYI 2350 & 2940 utilize the same flywheel starter ring(T20088 subs to R114282 14.325'' in OD)
 
   #9  

Zebrafive

Super Member
Joined
Aug 5, 2010
Messages
5,460
Location
South West MI
Tractor
John Deere 2030, John Deere 6415
On my JD 2030 the dealer recommend a new solenoid. Which I tried, bought from my dealer, JD part. No change.
I also extended the ground cable to the engine block, no change.
Rather than pay the big $$$ cost of a JD starter, I took a chance on the DB starter. Bib change! starts much better/faster and in colder temp.
I do not have clamp on amp meter to give the amp draw.
 

rScotty

Elite Member
Joined
Apr 21, 2001
Messages
4,980
Location
Rural mountains - Colorado
Tractor
Kubota M59, JD530, JD310SG. Restoring Yanmar YM165D
Good for you! And good for the DB starter folks. Starters haven't been improved in way too long.
Using modern computer analysis it's surprisingly easy to make a better electric motor. Apparently DB has recognized that and is capitalizing on it. Good for them.

I'm guessing that you gave up the plans to put another battery in parallel. That's good. I think it would have been a disappointment.
Hopefully someone will measure amp draw and give us some numbers. I might even do that myself.
rScotty
 
 
Top