Air Cleaner

   #1  

TWINKLE_TOES

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I picked up some Kobota VHS training tapes on ebay from some fella, can't remember his name. I think he has a talk board somewhere about "factors" or something. He is probably a Mathematician.

The "Kubota Diesel Engine Maintenance Tape" discussed air filter maintenance and said that a dirty filter is a better filter than a clean one, just not as efficient. It also said "Not" to clean it but change it. Change on scheduled maintenance or on performance degradation. Even had a troubleshooting case of a destroyed engine due to "dusting" and diagnosed the cause as filter cleaning.

My Operator manual for the B21 primary element says "blow compressed air from the inside and replace yearly or every sixth cleaning". The maintenace schedule says clean every 100 hours and replace yearly. The secondary element should be replaced yearly.

What do you guy's do with your filters. I'm guessing the Kubota tape is just older thinking and not applicable to todays filter elements./w3tcompact/icons/tongue.gif
 
   #2  

Muhammad

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Yeah, and that might be for the single elements... I'm pretty sure they changed the maintenance schedule/replacement when the dual elements were put in. If I remember that 'case study', the dusted enging was because he let dust into the intake hose when he changed the filter.

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   #3  

Bird

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This does strike me as being a bit odd. In 1995, a Kubota factory service rep told me to not be in a hurry to change the air filter on my B7100; said it was better after it got a little dirty, but he didn't know why. That was the first time I ever heard anyone say that it wasn't best to keep the air filter clean. I do blow out the outer filter on my tractor pretty frequently and replace both annually.

Bird
 
  
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TWINKLE_TOES

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Bird,

This caught my ear pretty good when I heard it on the tape. I like you, frequently blow out the filter. I am very careful not to get dust and dirt inside the housing when I do it.

I do run a WD40 wetted finger around the lip seal when I re-install the primary filter to make sure it does not roll over. The first job I did when I first got the tractor was loader work in rock hard clay that turned to dust when it was broken up. Dumping the loader the dust would boil all over. I'm guessing Muhammad hit the nail on the head with his suggestion that the difference is the primary and secondary filter on todays Kubota's. I'm going to continue to blow and clean the filter. I do try to blow from the inside out and wipe all dust from the filter housing. The Kubota tape did mention disconnecting the filter output hose to examine if dust was getting thru the filter. This may create a line leak if not done right when reattached. I think the paranoids are out to get me. Hope they go away when I have more hours on the tractor.
 
   #5  

Thomas

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My biggest problem that I have is the pollen up here from mid May until mid July. /w3tcompact/icons/frown.gif
Its seems everytime I refuel I have blow out the air filter also wipe out the housing. /w3tcompact/icons/crazy.gif

I to heard that a little dirty air filter is better..mmmmmm.

I change both air cleaners once a year,for I'm a strong believer in keeping a engine running smooth.


Thomas..NH /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif
 
   #6  

Anonymous Poster

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It is true that a filter works better when it is dirty. It is not a difficult concept to understand. A filter has small spaces or gaps between the fibers that the air or oil passes through. These spaces stop particles that are larger than the gap. As more particles build up on the filter the gaps become smaller and trap increasingly smaller particles. That is why a dirty filter does a better job of filtering than a new filter. As the filter becomes more and more clogged, the filtering job gets better and better. The down side is that the pressure necessary to make the oil or air pass through the filter increases. This increased pressure requirement will eventually restrict the air or oil flow. In the case of a air filter the restricted flow will impact engine performance. With an oil filter restricted flow will cause the relief valve to open, bypassing the filter.

The improved filtering may be the reason that some manufacturers specify that the oil filter be replaced at every other oil change. Changing more often than needed is actually worse for the engine not better.

Andy
 
   #7  

Bird

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Andy, I can understand the concept; I just don't quite buy it./w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif A dirty filter (so long as it doesn't have any holes in it) will filter out even smaller particles; however, as you mentioned, it also restricts flow. I want my engine to breathe freely, and I want the oil both to keep circulating and to get filtered, not to bypass the filter. The way I see it is that while the new filter may not get the smallest particles, that filter was made for that engine to filter what needs filtering most. I just never could quite bring myself to put nice clean oil in an engine with a pint to a quart of dirty oil in a dirty filter, so I reckon at least for the time being I'll continue to change the filter every time I change the oil, and try to keep my air filter as clean as possible.

By the way, you know what a "concept" is don't you? The dictionary defines it with slightly different words, but the best I can figure a "concept" is a half baked idea that ain't been thought out. We went through a period of years when the boss's favorite buzz words were "meaningful concepts." I don't think anyone ever figured out just what that was.

Bird
 
   #8  

MChalkley

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Bird - I can define the term "meaningful concept" for you, at least in practical terms: When you "buy" it, something meaningful happens for the person who "sold" you on it. In other words, he wins - and you lose.

When I worked for a major bank not too many years ago, a Management Committee member who already had his golden parachute prepared tried to explain why a huge outsourcing proposal was good for all the employees and the company, too. This one started out as a "meaningful concept", too. He tried to tell us that everyone was going to keep their job at their existing salary. Some, he said, would even get raises. And the cost to the company was going to be less. When I asked how A + B + C (the outsourcing company's profits) could be less than A + B , we broke early for lunch, and the rest of the deal was done behind closed doors. It turned out that the part he left out (and wasn't about to tell anybody) was that a lot of folks would get to keep their jobs only if they agreed to move somewhere no one would want to move. In other words, they made them offers they knew they would refuse. It was a very "meaningful concept" for them by the time it was over, I can tell you. /w3tcompact/icons/mad.gif

MarkC
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TWINKLE_TOES

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Bird,

I did my 50 hr service yesterday and I did remove the filter to engine hose for examination. The inside of the hose was not a dark black color like new rubber. It had a slight tan color. Rubbing the inside by hand did not appreciably modify the color. After rinsing with WD40 and blowing out the dark black rubber color returned. I would not conclude that the filter was not doing a good job.
Also, removal and installation of the hose clamps, left little doubt the seal integrity of the hoses had not been compromized.(good clamps) I did build a right angle fitting for my compressor nozzle to blow air more effectively from the inside of the filter. I am going to continue to clean the filter frequently when I am working in very dusty conditions, I plan to replace the filter per the manual or when the filter shows any sign of damage (dust on the inside or asymmetry of the vertical partitions) Also periodic examination of the Hose. In Washington, west of the mountains, dust is as rare as hens teeth most of the year.
 
  
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TWINKLE_TOES

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I dug this out of the archives, as usual I should be reading instead of typing./w3tcompact/icons/frown.gif

Steve Carver has a different view, worth reading.

205.188.193.59 writes:

"no fluff" advice
take it, use it, save money and hassel "down the road"
based on 40 years, serving over 100 units every month

1. use MANUFACTURER's part # s. Purchase filters from the dealer you expect to perform warranty repairs. Keep invoices in your log book and note model and serial number on invoice. Ask him to record dates/hrs. also.

2. keep HOUR LOG and record of filter changes (when practical) have your dealer change the filters and sign off that air system has been tested and inspected) whle in warranty period.

3. When changing elements. Remove old element. See the dust fall to the bottom of housing .

IMPORTANT... NOW LOOK VERY CLOSELY AT THE SEAL ON THE ENGINE SIDE OF THE ELEMENT. If there is NOT an even wear/sealing pattern, without breaks, without debris, without DUST TRAILS and CRACKS, without chucks or debris implanted. Proceed. IF ANY OF THE ABOVE FACTORS EXIST. STOP - PLAN TO DO MORE THAN CRAM IN THAT NEW ELEMENT. YOU have DIRT inside your engine. The old element (IF PROBERLY INSTALLED) you're just before throwing away - is your best first step to get warranty help. Do not throw it away. Do not let anyone have it to keep as there own or to tamper with.

THEN LOOK CAREFULLY INTO THE HOSE LEADING FROM THE FILTER TOWARD THE ENGINE'S INTAKE.. IF YOU SEE ANY DUST THERE..... STOP>>> MAKE A PLAN.
THERE IS DIRT IN YOUR ENGINE.


No dust, no cracks, no dust trails on seal problems... then
WIPE OUT / CLEAN out the bottom of HOUSING (CANISTER).

4. MOST IMPORTANT NOW

Make sure the NEW element, matches the old one. Everyone can "screw up" sometime. Compare the lenght, seal, #s, etc. Make sure it's the "RIGHT ONE" .

5. As you insert the new element, do all you can to insure a good snug sealing fits and proper tightening and wing nuts, canister caps, etc.

6. Inspect the rest of the intake system. Air leaks resulting in raw air entering and ruining a diesel engine in just a very few hours can occur because of:
A. warped, bent, housings or canisters
B. air filter indicator hoses and devices attached to intake manifolds and filter canisters.
C. cracked or damged intake housings and manifold gaskets.
D. loose and misaligned clamps and hoses

All these factors may have nothing to do with FILTER ELMENT CHANGING


7. We do not ever "blow out" filters. Because it's my persponal feeling and decison that it is " Penny wise-dollar foolish". You're welcomed to your opinion.

We use a "magic marker" and write on the element itself---- date, tractor ser#, hrs, date installed.

This practice and discipline over more than 10 years has resulted in ZERO ISSUES with engine dusting failures, WARRANTY OR NO WARRANTY. NO FAILURES. AS IT RELATES TO THIS MFG. (I can not say the same for some others ---but only 6 or 7 times in 40 years)

We've seen several failures on units owned and operated by lessees and buyers who said they used these practices, but unfortunatly ,could not provide any written records to help us advocate thier position with the mfg.'s warranty represrentative. The "talk" doesn't work - the records WILL WORK if the pattern of good record keeping and preventative maintenace is documented.

These records will earn you a bonus at trade or resale time. We can offer much more for a tractor with good records. Just like plane, boat, horse, dog, etc. The time and effort to keep records is not waisted.

Steve Carver
Carver Equip
Dunn NC
www.carverequipment.com
 
 
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