Anybody know about International Pay Loaders?

   #1  

MinnesotaEric

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I'm going to be going and looking at (from the photo from the seller) what looks like an H90 International Payloader from lates 70s or early 80s. It is powered by a Navistar DT466 and has a leaking air brake valve under the brake pedal. Anything I should be sure to look at or know about? The price is right and so I thought I'd buy it, fix the brakes, service the heck out of it, use it to knock over some trees to make a building pad and relocate 40 yards of t'was beaver lodge and then sell it going into the fall for a profit. Or so goes the plan.

I know nothing about these machines. Am I about to step on a pile of rakes?

I cannot share the seller's photo, but this Houghs looks just like the machine I'm going to go look at.

Used Construction, Farm, Fleet, and Government Equipment For Sale | Auctions | Purple Wave
 
  
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MinnesotaEric

MinnesotaEric

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If everything turns out to be what I think it is when we replace the batteries and start it up after the snow melts, I'll be purchasing an International/Hough H80 Payloader. The machine looks just like the one in the video below but the one I'm buying has a rebuilt turbo Navistar DT466 engine (preferred) rather than the crank-ticking (what looks like a) Cummins in the video.

 
  
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MinnesotaEric

MinnesotaEric

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I'm told that the one I plan to purchase is a '78, so a Houghs H-80B. My immediate problem (especially since I must bring stuff to the machine, and not rework the battery trays) is finding the right 12v 7.7" x 8.5" x 19" pair of 4D batteries on the cheap. I did find a cross-reference battery brand table on the internet. I'm going to call my local battery, Fleet, Fleet Pride, and local Napas stores on Monday to see if I can find a pair of nice maintenance-free batteries.
 
   #5  

Peter 315

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Try a CAT dealer if one is close....
 
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I'm told that the one I plan to purchase is a '78, so a Houghs H-80B. My immediate problem (especially since I must bring stuff to the machine, and not rework the battery trays) is finding the right 12v 7.7" x 8.5" x 19" pair of 4D batteries on the cheap. I did find a cross-reference battery brand table on the internet. I'm going to call my local battery, Fleet, Fleet Pride, and local Napas stores on Monday to see if I can find a pair of nice maintenance-free batteries.

Those aren’t 4D dimensions. 4D batteries are 9-7/8 high. If you really need 4DLT batteries Tractor Supply is about the cheapest around for them.
 
  
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MinnesotaEric

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Now that I know of a source for the pair of 4D batteries, I want to turn my attention to one of the known issues. The H-80 loader uses an air over hydraulic braking system. One of the valves (Parking brake?) under the lefthand foot pedal tends to leak air requiring a long idle time to build up pressure. After an odyssey of phone calls to Case Construction USA, and two local Case Construction dealers, I found out that the parts "books" had been sold to Kamastsu and so parts for these older loaders come from Kamastsu dealers these days with some potential for cross-referencing back to Case Construction. My local Komatsu dealer is emailing me copies of the relevant parts pages so I can puzzle out what I need.

Documenting on the internet for the benefit of the next guy.
 

Peter 315

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You can try this place they are a IH , Dressta , Hough what ever they are now dealer my buddy has a 90 and a 120 and a newer IH 530. Some parts are hard to find ,He loves them big old dinosaurs....:) Winmill Equipment Co. Inc.
 

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Other than the dealer being helpful which is never a bad thing I don’t think you will find any legacy connection between Case Construction and Hough/IH/Dresser/Komatsu. I wish you luck in tracking down what you need.
 

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I don't know about the short versions, but I found the full height 8D batteries locally at a tractor supply / filter place ... I -think- they were about a hundred bucks apiece, I needed a pair of them ..
 

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Back in the 90's I had an IH2500b tractor loader. It's an industrial machine, and Komatsu Dresser had taken over parts and manuals for those machines. I found a dealer in Ft. Wayne, Indiana that had all of the manuals and could order any parts I needed. That's 20+ years ago, but maybe you'll still be in luck.

There appears to be many places that are parting out machines like you're looking at. Start checking there before looking for new parts.
 

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I looked quickly at their website and couldn't find it, but a dozen years ago, or so, I started a free subscription with them online. Every other month, or maybe it's every quarter, they send out a magazine/catalog with the listings from dealers all over the country in it. In the back part of the magazine, they have the dealers and companies that sell parts and attachments. They also have a bunch of ads or listings from salvage companies. I've found this to be very useful when looking for parts that my Case dealer no longer supplies for my dozer. With an older machine, sooner or later you will need something that is going to challenge you in finding it, and a salvage company that is parting out what you have might be your only source.
 

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My father still has a Hough 65 (1971) that we have in a field right now. Eventually I want to restore that machine.

The air over hydraulic brakes are terrible. The air side is problematic by nature and the hydraulic side is weak (master and wheel cylinders seemed to blow out). We always had problems and rarely had working brakes. It was used as a snow machine and yard loader.

They are slow but powerful. Through a lot of customization, we changed the 4D batteries to the big CAT batteries and made new battery boxes. Extended the hood and put a 466 in place of the original engine (365?). Original drive train and hydraulic pumps and the hour meter was broken well past 20,000 hours.

We also have a baby straight frame H30. That has regular hydraulic brakes and are a total nightmare as well.
 

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My father still has a Hough 65 (1971) that we have in a field right now. Eventually I want to restore that machine.

The air over hydraulic brakes are terrible. The air side is problematic by nature and the hydraulic side is weak (master and wheel cylinders seemed to blow out). We always had problems and rarely had working brakes. It was used as a snow machine and yard loader.

They are slow but powerful. Through a lot of customization, we changed the 4D batteries to the big CAT batteries and made new battery boxes. Extended the hood and put a 466 in place of the original engine (365?). Original drive train and hydraulic pumps and the hour meter was broken well past 20,000 hours.

We also have a baby straight frame H30. That has regular hydraulic brakes and are a total nightmare as well.

They never had good brakes even when they were new...
 

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The Army used these as forklifts model is the M10A. You may be able to find some manuals online as well as some surplus parts around. They were pretty reliable. Only things I remember really breaking were the back up alarms, low air warning buzzer and some transmission/transfer output seal leaks.
 

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Eric - I'd love to see photos of the new loader. Hough loaders and old square body GM trucks are my passion.
 
  
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MinnesotaEric

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Eric - I'd love to see photos of the new loader. Hough loaders and old square body GM trucks are my passion.

Everything is buried in snow right now so we need northern Minnesota to melt. Right now we're in fools spring heading back into second winter. I have an agreement to purchase this H80 with the following caveats. That with new batteries, it pops off easily as explained, that the existing weeps here and there in the hydro system are not leaks. That the bottom of the bucket is substantially still intact. That none of the pins are loose. That it shifts easily in all three gears and that it responds properly to throttle inputs forward and reverse.

That all said, if I do get it, I'll likely have questions!
 

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Other than the dealer being helpful which is never a bad thing I don稚 think you will find any legacy connection between Case Construction and Hough/IH/Dresser/Komatsu. I wish you luck in tracking down what you need.

There was never any connection between Hough and Case. IH sold the Construction Equipment Division to Dresser, who later sold it to Komatsu. They later sold the Agricultural Division to Tenneco, who owned Case at the time.

Two different divisions of IH sold to two different competitors.

The IH trademark was part of the Tenneco transaction, and the old International Harvester Company became what still today is known as Navistar
 
  
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MinnesotaEric

MinnesotaEric

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IMG_7134.JPG

648584d1585700827-anybody-know-about-international-pay-img_7134-jpg


To the relief of the seller in the brave new world we suddenly find ourselves in I am going ahead with our original deal to purchase this H80. I need to do some grinding out, cutting new metal reinforcements and welding on bottom of the bucket and replace the leading edge, fix some vacuum leaks, clean it off and get it painted and replace all the wiring because it is in the crumbly stage of life and because the fuel and temperate meters are inoperative and half of the lights don’t work but I can have fun fixing this easy stuff. The tires are pretty poor but the thing is located in north-central Minnesota where my pickings are slim and bringing in a better machine would cost me transport and tax on the sale.

The DT466 engine started within 1/4 second of cranking after sitting for two years. The pins and center pin all appear right. Rubber gaskets on the pins on the loader boon have rotted out and need to be replaced to retain grease.

Hopefully this will not turn onto a money pit, but no matter what, it will make for good YouTube fodder and I’m only into for 22 cents a pound.

Thank you very much for all the responses. I’m certain I’ll have more questions to come when I bring not home.
 
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View attachment 648584

To the relief of the seller in the brave new world we suddenly find ourselves in I am going ahead with our original deal to purchase this H80. I need to do some grinding out, cutting new metal reinforcements and welding on bottom of the bucket and replace the leading edge, fix some vacuum leaks, clean it off and get it painted and replace all the wiring because it is in the crumbly stage of life and because the fuel and temperate meters are inoperative and half of the lights don稚 work but I can have fun fixing this easy stuff. The tires are pretty poor but the thing is located in north-central Minnesota where my pickings are slim and bringing in a better machine would cost me transport and tax on the sale.

The DT466 engine started within 1/4 second of cranking after sitting for two years. The pins and center pin all appear right. Rubber gaskets on the pins on the loader boon have rotted out and need to be replace to retain grease.

Hopefully this will not turn onto a money pit, but no matter what, it will make for good YouTube fodder and I知 only into for 22 cents a pound.

Thank you very much for all the responses. I知 certain I値l have more questions to come when I bring not home.


25,000 pounds?
 
  
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MinnesotaEric

MinnesotaEric

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Neither the seller nor I know what the weird mystery thing is that is attached to the topside of the curl cylinder. The whatever-it-is appears to have two quick disconnect vacuum lines attached coming out the back of it facing the driver. Anybody know what this thing is for?

49724853712_c4827675d0_k.jpg
 
   #29  

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It's part of the auto bucket leveling system .....
 
   #31  

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Anybody know what this thing is for?

Not sure and don't know but perhaps its missing some OEM parts and its a bracket and part of an on board greasing device or system ?
Just a guess .
 

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MinnesotaEric

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It's part of the auto bucket leveling system .....

I think you're right.

For the external benefit of the Internet searching for IH Hough H-80B Payloader information, the optional attachments where

1) Automatic bucket positioner.
2) Air cleaner Service gauge (my dump truck has one of those it a is a little vacuum float).
3) Back up alarm (I will put an on/off switch on that once I fix the wiring).
4) Cab and side enclosure assembly (are you effing nuts running one of these things open station, I mean I've seen them, but yeah, no).
5) Cab heater with side defrosters (I was told that works).
6) Cold Weather Starting (It has an aftermarket tank heater on a heater line, but nothing that I have seen preheating fuel or hydro oil).
7) Fenders.
8) Mirrors.
9) Logging kit (I wonder what that is?).
10) Low-level lighting kit (it looks like what the lower front-facing lights are in the photo in a prior post).
11) ROPS, with cab and side enclosure (The cab looks "mashable," I wonder what the ROPS looks like?).
12) Seat belt (safety first).
13) Tire inflation kit (well that'd be hella useful! Put that air-brake compressor to work. Go Army! I miss epically expensive junk like that on crappy utility vehicles).
14) Tachometer and optional gauges.
15) Turn signals (awe, you're going to run that little car over making a left turn, aren't you?).

Other fun facts from the brochure I found. The H-80B weighs 31,900 pounds plus whatever the tires weigh. Max lift is 30,121 pounds. Boom lift in 7.1 seconds, lowers in 5.0 seconds. The main hydro pump pumps 82 gallons per minute at 2,500 rpm at 2500 psi. (what, what?!) The steering pump is rated at 42 gallons per minute at 2,500 rpm and 2,000 PSI. and the relief is set at 2,500 PSI. The pair of boom lift cylinders are 6" bore with 42" of travel, the curl cylinder is 7" with 22" of travel and the pair of steering cylinders are 4" with 17" of travel. Breakout force is rated at 31,000 pounds.

Standard gauges are

Air pressure
Engine coolant temp
Engine oil pressure
Engine fuel pressure
Hour meter
Torque-convertor oil temperature
Voltmeter

The standard 24v alternator is rated at 65 amps.

Other fun things are from the owner's manual.

The "getting to know" your payloader cartoon.

49729563593_469b06fb67_k.jpg


The remember to service your payloader cartoon.

49730428397_3e4913eb14_k.jpg


And the advice on how to wreck every tree...

49729563958_84fd4686e1_k.jpg


This is as much fun as a new boat!
 
   #34  

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Hello minesotaEric. If the 80 has the same brakes as the 90 then learn to drive without brakes. The local quarry had 2 x 90's and the brakes were crap. Parking was bucket down(park brakes just never worked), and stopping was slowing early to stop. One operator I worked with said they belonged on the quarry floor as in a log skid site situation they either fell in holes, or dug the next hole to fall in. He also said that Hough had a reputation for bad brakes.
 
  
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MinnesotaEric

MinnesotaEric

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Hello minesotaEric. If the 80 has the same brakes as the 90 then learn to drive without brakes. The local quarry had 2 x 90's and the brakes were crap. Parking was bucket down(park brakes just never worked), and stopping was slowing early to stop. One operator I worked with said they belonged on the quarry floor as in a log skid site situation they either fell in holes, or dug the next hole to fall in. He also said that Hough had a reputation for bad brakes.

You may be onto something because they all seem to be listed with bad brakes. Until I see a service manual, I don't know if the brakes are wet disk brakes or some kind of drum brake. Earlier this evening I ordered a Sunex 22-ton air jack, as well as a pair of 22-ton jack stands so I will have what I need to pick up an end and remove wheels to get at the hubs. On the other hand, I've read online that many of the braking problems are hydraulic issues and that these things tend to have wheel cylinders that fail. This may become a money pit issue, but I need brakes for my application. Regardless, it'll make good YouTube fodder.
 
   #36  

redman135

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MinnesotaEric, you may find that the brakes are dry disc type. They were nortorious for short life.
Good luck which ever way you go.
 
  
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MinnesotaEric

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Today I chased the Hough Payloader home. Now comes the hard part: fixing it.

 

mpham

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Fond memories for me Eric. I worked at my dad's garage in the late 70's early 80's and the construction company we serviced had a few Hough 60 and 70 models. My dad owned a 60 and used it to plow snow for the city for quite a few years. It always ran great with very little upkeep to the engine and trans. Brakes never worked for crap as I recall.
 
  
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MinnesotaEric

MinnesotaEric

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Fond memories for me Eric. I worked at my dad's garage in the late 70's early 80's and the construction company we serviced had a few Hough 60 and 70 models. My dad owned a 60 and used it to plow snow for the city for quite a few years. It always ran great with very little upkeep to the engine and trans. Brakes never worked for crap as I recall.

We've got a new medical provider moving into a big box store in a town near me and as soon as I know I have brakes, wiper, and a heater working in this thing, I'm calling their corporate office to bid on plowing over the winter as I've watched one contractor go from clapped out loader and skid loader to new loader and skid loader doing just the local Walmart lot and I want "in" on that action. Plus I've done commercial plowing in the past as well.

Anyway, now that the Hough has reached the Tinkerage, I've been looking it over while trying to find out stuff in the parts and service books. I was able to purchase a new diaphragm for the power cluster reservoir (the separate fluid reservoir that feeds both master cylinders, but Hough calls them "power clusters" LOL because they can) on eBay. I see the airhorn valve may need rebuilding or replacing. I'm trying to chase down two mystery airlines that have been terminated improperly. I notice that both front and rear wipers are air operated and I don't think either is hooked up.

What I did see is that this machine appears to be the final version of the H-80B model as it has disk brakes. Here is the right rear.

49795022587_938681a337_k.jpg


The disk spec is 11mm or 7/16" and both rear disks appear to be in good shape. The fronts are a little harder for me to get at. I need to get some cynder blocks to hold the bucket up off of the ground for better access to the front axle.

Here is the double caliper right front. I can see that at least the two bleeder screws on the bottom are sheered off and the disk looks heavily grooved. I wasn't able to get a wrench on it to check it because of clearance issues (I'm fat).

49795035777_3419742efb_k.jpg


I also see I've got a leak from somewhere in the primary or secondary pump area. It is so messy right now I cannot tell where any of it is coming from but getting the brakes working is my primary goal so all of the air leaks must get squared away before I can look at the hydraulic braking since the system is air over hydraulic for the brakes.

49794174628_42fcc8ea52_k.jpg


One other thing: This Hough has a what looks like a quick-release system for the bucket (the third function hoses are sitting there on the end of the loader), but the quick release is lacking any automated provision for pulling the bottom pins. Does anybody know what is going on here?

49794158653_784cbc9045_k.jpg


Thanks for any and all help or encouragement.
 
  
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On the quick release, can you post a picture of the lower latches?

Aaron Z

There aren't any latches on the bottom. The top pin-holes are open so that if the lower pins were removed, one could curl down and drop the bucket. Not like today's hydraulically controlled lower pins. Who knows, maybe this is what they did back in 1979. I don't know but I'd like to learn and find out.
 

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I need to get some cynder blocks to hold the bucket up off of the ground for better access to the front axle.

Please don't use cinder blocks. Use wood cribbing, like 4x4 or 6x6. Cinder blocks are liable to crumble under that weight. I like having you around. :)

Cool machine!
 
  
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Please don't use cinder blocks. Use wood cribbing, like 4x4 or 6x6. Cinder blocks are liable to crumble under that weight. I like having you around. :)

Cool machine!

Thank you for the advice! I have a similar thread over on the heavy equipment forums and there too a commentator nixed my cinder-block idea for the same reasons you're nixing the idea. Also, as soon as I told Mark, the guy frequently appearing in my videos and who is an ironworker by trade, he told me that we need cribbing to support that loader bucket because cinder-blocks would collapse and especially so if we're pick up either axle to service the calipers.

Anyway, I've exhausted the regular dealer for parts I already know I need so I'm about to call obscure parts people.
 
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shaeff

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Thank you for the advice! I have a similar thread over on the heavy equipment forums and there too a commentator nixed my cinder-block idea for the same reasons you're nixing the idea. Also, as soon as I told Mark, the guy frequently appearing in my videos and who is an ironworker by trade, he told me that we need cribbing to support that loader bucket because cinder-blocks would collapse and especially so if we're pick up either axle to service the calipers.

Anyway, I've exhausted the regular dealer for parts I already know I need so I'm about to call obscure parts people. I'm trying to figure out what engine manual I need with a remanufactured Serial number of 467TM3U102621

You're welcome! Back before I was born (I'm 36), my father was cutting parts off a car with an oxy/acetylene torch. He was underneath the car, supported by cinder blocks. He still tells me this story and I get chills. Randomly, he started to feel really strange, like something bad was about to happen to him. He turned off the torch, and quickly slid out from under the car. Seconds later the cinder blocks collapsed and the car (with no wheels on it) was laying with it's frame on the ground. That story was told to me at a young age and I'll never forget that cinder blocks used as cribbing nearly ceased my existence before I was even a twinkle in his eye.

Keep digging for parts, there has to be some out there!
 
  
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You're welcome! Back before I was born (I'm 36), my father was cutting parts off a car with an oxy/acetylene torch. He was underneath the car, supported by cinder blocks. He still tells me this story and I get chills. Randomly, he started to feel really strange, like something bad was about to happen to him. He turned off the torch, and quickly slid out from under the car. Seconds later the cinder blocks collapsed and the car (with no wheels on it) was laying with it's frame on the ground. That story was told to me at a young age and I'll never forget that cinder blocks used as cribbing nearly ceased my existence before I was even a twinkle in his eye.

Keep digging for parts, there has to be some out there!

Elsewhere a fellow told me at the 466 was the A version of the engine, 467, the B version, 468 the C model, and so on. As such, I ordered in a service manual covering the DT466B model and so I should have a complete set of manuals, minus the engine parts manual.

In other news, Thill Tractor came through for the throttle cable (which they can make for $250) and bleeder screws ($25 each). After calling all over to find an air horn valve, I finally called my local Fleet Pride, gave them the original part number for the air horn valve, and Fleet Pride quickly cross-referenced it all the way to the newest Bendix foot-operated airhorn valve for $52.00.

I also talked to ABC Caliper. They can rebuild my calipers as needed for $350 each. They have no rebuild kits available. Several places can rebuild my power clusters, but after talking to my local Fleet Pride, I think I'd let them take a look at them before sending the power clusters off on adventures in different states.

So now I'm waiting on bits to arrive so I can attempt to fix all the air leaks in the hopes the hydraulic side of the brakes isn't too roached. Stoked about the throttle cable as the existing cable is stiff enough were my lubing it may not bring it back and in order to lube the throttle cable I need to take it half off anyway, so I figure brand new is better—if for no other reason than new will be easier on my bum right knee.

I am having a hard time finding the stupid battery box latches, which I need three.
 

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Tractor
Just a Scag
Engine serial number is stamped into a machined boss on the engine block just below the head gasket. IIRC it is just aft if the injection pump and will start with DT466, DT467 or whatever. 466(A) series shipped with the crankcase vent on the side of the block. B series and later or an A series with updated piston rings will have the crank vent in the more conventional valve cover location.
 

Richard

Elite Member
Joined
Apr 6, 2000
Messages
4,486
Location
Knoxville, TN
Tractor
International 1066 Full sized JCB Loader/Backhoe and a John Deere 430 to mow with
Neither the seller nor I know what the weird mystery thing is that is attached to the topside of the curl cylinder. The whatever-it-is appears to have two quick disconnect vacuum lines attached coming out the back of it facing the driver. Anybody know what this thing is for?

1. I don't know if this has been fully figured out yet
2. I thought it was something to do with leveling as well
3. My JCB loader/backhoe has something that looks similar that rides on the lift arm. There is a sensor in the rear of it. It's non working at this point but my understanding is it would signal to you when the bucket was parallel to the ground.

Since my sensor doesn't work.... I've learned by eyeball that when the rod is roughly one inch protruding from the rear, the bucket is level with the ground.

Since I can't see my leading edge of the bucket, it's nice to where where it is (approximately) in space.
 

fried1765

Super Star Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2015
Messages
10,206
Tractor
Kubota L48 TLB, Ford 1920 FEL, 8N Ford, Gravely 12 HP "Professional", 48" SCAG Liberty
Please don't use cinder blocks. Use wood cribbing, like 4x4 or 6x6. Cinder blocks are liable to crumble under that weight. I like having you around. :)

Cool machine!

AGREED!!!
No cinder blocks!!!
 
 
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