At Home In The Woods

[Coyote machine]

I hear you on the blown in insulation and its fire resistance. What truly amazes me is that supposedly professional people who at the very least ought to know better end up putting families like yours at risk by doing the shoddy installation work they did on your house. :confused2:
To say nothing of what you had to pay them to do it WRONG to begin with?!
And what if something bad had happened because of their crappy workmanship? Would they have taken responsibility for the cause/effect? I seriously doubt it.
And do they do this kind of thing because they can and it is out of sight- therefore less likely to be noticed by you the homeowner/consumer.
Man, I would be so infuriated, as I'm sure you are,- I would be torn between wanting them to correct it at their expense and with your final approval and wanting to have nothing to do with them whatsoever because of their poor quality work the first time around. I feel for you and the situation. I am there as we speak with rain coming down in my brand new kitchen/mudroom because they screwed up on the insulation of the ceiling roof. I have to run my ceiling fans constantly to keep water, which is a result of condensation reaching the ceiling, from dripping down at random times of year. Water has damaged my pine plank T&G ceiling by forming condensation behind the boards in the cathedral ceiling and releasing it and staining end grain with black water mark damage. Then to add insult to injury the water ends up running down the boards onto the top of the walls and then staining the entire way down the wall in random streaks. We have to move our dining room table and chairs to keep them from being damaged and put drip catchers all over the place. Most recently I found water was entering the mud room walls now that we have the fans going constantly, the condensation is pushed out to the walls perimeter and leaks onto the Bose in wall speakers, and will eventually destroy them too. I have yet to find an adequate solution nor have I heard one proposed from anyone, including the contractor who did all the work and now leaves me to deal with it. AUUGGH!!!

Homeownership is full of fun adventures into near insanity isn't it?!

 

[dstig1]

Wow. That sounds like someone seriously screwed up air and or vapor sealing in your place, and combined that with crappy insulation. If you are condensing vapor in the walls, then there probably is no vapor barrier no the inside like there should be in your climate. Plus the insulation must be poor as the humid inside air must be condensing within the wall - where the insulation should be keeping it warm enough not to. There was a good article in last months Fine Homebuilding that described the dew point issue in walls, even though the article was talking about a hybrid insulation system primarily (flash and batt). Link below but you'd need to sign up to read it, or find the magazine at a news stand.

Preview - Why Flash and Batt Makes Sense - Fine Homebuilding Article

You may want to talk with the state licensing board or local inspector, if you haven't already. This has to be flawed installation.

 

[Obed]

Coyote machine,
I'm very sorry about your troubles. It pains me just thinking about your situation. I feel like we've been somewhat fortunate. There are many things that could have gone wrong with our house build but so far the issues have just been a little annoying. I wish you the best.
Obed

 

[Coyote machine]

Quote:
dstig1
Re: At Home In The Woods
Wow. That sounds like someone seriously screwed up air and or vapor sealing in your place, and combined that with crappy insulation. If you are condensing vapor in the walls, then there probably is no vapor barrier no the inside like there should be in your climate. Plus the insulation must be poor as the humid inside air must be condensing within the wall - where the insulation should be keeping it warm enough not to. There was a good article in last months Fine Homebuilding that described the dew point issue in walls, even though the article was talking about a hybrid insulation system primarily (flash and batt). Link below but you'd need to sign up to read it, or find the magazine at a news stand.

Preview - Why Flash and Batt Makes Sense - Fine Homebuilding Article

You may want to talk with the state licensing board or local inspector, if you haven't already. This has to be flawed installation.
(End quote).

Talk to the licensing board or local inspector....wait a minute while I ROFL:laughing:
Where I live in VT there is NO board, NO local or any other kind of inspector, and there isn't even zoning regs or any other thing I need to do in my town!! Woopie!!
Can you believe it?! I can build whatever I want, where ever I want and don't need ANYONE's permission, no permits, etc.
There is only ONE thing I need to do and that is build a mound system for my septic if I wouldn't otherwise pass perk test, or groundwater runoff issues compliance with the state.

BTW, I did have to build a mound system to tie in the existing house/addition with the new barn and that cost over $30K. And it froze last Christmas and cost me an additional $7K to run an oil fired portable furnace to heat a blanket with hot water to thaw it out at about $4-500/ day in oil PLUS the machine rental, excavator labor, etc. etc. Then I had to devise a plan to keep it from doing it again this winter. I decided to drop another empty septic tank nearer the mound so the water could break siphon once the pump stopped pumping the effluent uphill, and that would allow it to not freeze in the distribution pipes at the top of the mound. So far so good, but it cost me the extra excavation and tank and labor. Now the state has to have an engineer sign off on the mound not leaking any effluent to ground water level around the mound for the next two years. Then, and only then I get the engineer to sign off to the state and the state grants me the permit they hold until I pass the above criteria.
So I can build a house that doesn't meet any codes and basically do what I want, but if I want to use a bathroom I have to jump over the moon and be held responsible forever by the state as to "potential ground water pollution".

BTW, the insulation issue is not as bad as it seems. There is plenty of insulation and vapor barriers etc., there is just too much condensation rising to the point of reaching a due point near/in the plank ceiling area and then causing the water to run down the interior sheet rock surface. I do not believe it is getting into the walls so much as it isn't able to escape to anywhere so it creates it's own little rain forest. This may be because i have too much insulation and not enough air exchange going on due to radiant heat in the floor and other factors.
I appreciate the FHB mag link, and I have read what it allows me to do and will sign in soon to read the rest of the article.

Part of the problem may lie in the fact that I do NOT want to add an air handler or other mechanical means of circulating air to solve the condensation issues. I paid tons of money to have a tight, draft free house that takes a minimum of energy and electric to run. Having to add air handlers after the fact seems ludicrous to me and defeating the purpose of insulating to the max in the first place.

 

[Coyote machine]

Coyote machine,
I'm very sorry about your troubles. It pains me just thinking about your situation. I feel like we've been somewhat fortunate. There are many things that could have gone wrong with our house build but so far the issues have just been a little annoying. I wish you the best.
Obed

Thanks Obed for the kind thoughts- I appreciate it very much. I basically set out to let you know you are not alone in the 'what the hellO were they thinking when they did THIS to my house department'.
One of these days, and it can't come too soon, there will be a weeding out of the Cretans who call themselves professionals; when in many instances they actually know less about how and what to do than you or I, they just excel in somehow managing to get paid to do sub standard work. I can't wait for the day that enough people get fed up with accepting or for that matter having to deal with these types of problems and force their towns, cities etc. to require serious training and certification and licensing and renewal of licenses based on keeping up to code/ specks etc. It is coming- look at what is now law regarding painting more than six square feet of any house in which lead paint is present. That is a place to start but so much more needs to be done to protect the consumer from these fly by night morons. Ah, don't get me started...

Thanks again, and keep up the good work and keep checking for errors until most all are resolved. It takes a LONG time IMHO.:thumbsup:

 

[tony Cecil]

I wonder if a ceiling fan would do what you need, maybe run it in reverse, at low speed.?? Tony

 

[dstig1]

Quote:


Talk to the licensing board or local inspector....wait a minute while I ROFL:laughing:
Where I live in VT there is NO board, NO local or any other kind of inspector, and there isn't even zoning regs or any other thing I need to do in my town!! Woopie!!

I'm surprised to see that in the over-regulated NE region. There are benefits to having codes...as well as drawbacks.

Part of the problem may lie in the fact that I do NOT want to add an air handler or other mechanical means of circulating air to solve the condensation issues. I paid tons of money to have a tight, draft free house that takes a minimum of energy and electric to run. Having to add air handlers after the fact seems ludicrous to me and defeating the purpose of insulating to the max in the first place.

Well the first question is the air/vapor sealing and insulation. If you truly do have a good tight, well-insulated envelope and you are getting condensation, then the above statement is your problem and you are shooting yourself in the foot if you don't add mechanical ventilation (there are plenty of models with heat recovery exchangers on them to minimize energy loss).

Air handlers should not be added after the fact, they should have been part of the original construction! You need proper fresh air ventilation to maintain healthy indoor air quality. The amount of air you need to move in/out is not huge, but it is important to do so.

Think about it this way: Dew point means the temperature that the moisture in the air will begin to condense. The more moisture, the higher the dew point temp. The dew point is generally lower than the current air temp, unless it is raining. But you can have exterior surfaces that are colder than the air temp. If your moisture content is so high that you are condensing on 60-70deg surfaces, then you are living in a tropical rainforest. If you pull some of that moisture out, the dew point will drop and you will no longer condense on those surfaces.

So with all that moisture inside, do you see Thunderhead clouds forming when someone opens an outside door in the winter? If everything you described is correct (well-insulated, tight shell against both air and vapor movement), then your moisture problem is not due to shoddy construction but was created by the construction specifications.

Some light reading:
http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/reports/rr-0203-relative-humidity/at_download/file

Or if that doesn't work directly, go here and click download PDF in the upper right.
RR-0203: Relative Humidity — Building Science Information

 

[Coyote machine]

Thanks tony, I already have 2 ceiling fans running 24/7.

Thanks Dave,
I have read the articles you linked to; and I searched other articles of pertinence to the issues at hand on the building science site. The building/insulation HVAC work was probably done right as far as what was done, BUT I do not have anything to attach a whole house ventilation system to. I have a gas fired boiler with new radiant on the entire first floor,including the addition, and hydronic baseboard throughout the rest of the house. When I built my barn I incorporated an ERV, (energy recovery ventilator), made by Panasonic- BUT it limits the useful time of year to around mid-November for my climatic zone.
So I'm seeking via research a viable solution, and though I say I don't want to add an air exchanger or run ceiling fans 24/7 if it comes down to having to do so I will, but only once convinced doing whatever the possible solution is that it will actually likely if not certainly solve the problem(s).

Obed, I must apologize for seemingly if not actually hi-jacking your thread- certainly not my intent, and yet I feel
compelled to answer those, yourself included of course, who took the time and gave thought to my dilemma(s).

Thanks to all.:thumbsup:
CM

 

[Obed]

CM,
Think nothing of it. Your scenario makes for interesting discussion.
If your house is so tight the moisture can't leave, I'm wondering how it gets in the house in the first place. In order to prevent mustiness, mold, and mildew, have you considered running a dehumifier until you figure out a final solution?

Obed

 

[CurlyDave]

CM,

.... If your house is so tight the moisture can't leave, I'm wondering how it gets in the house in the first place...

Obed

Water vapor can enter a house through evaporation from humans (sweat, breathing, evaporation through skin without sweating), from cooking, from bathing (think of the steam in a bathroom after a shower), and combustion(burning gas during cooking, candles, etc.) Pets and plants are other sources. Amounts can be several quarts per day per person.

With modern construction techniques it is entirely possible to build a house which is too air tight.

While condensation is an easily noticed consequence, indoor air pollution can be very unhealthy in underventillated houses.