Battery based electric vehicles of today and tomorrow.

[/pine]

They're hydrogen/electric cars. Just like train engines are diesel/electric.

Actually they're not just like trains unless you are talking about using hydrogen to fuel an ICE to power a generator to power the electric motors...do the prototypes use this technology ?
Everything I've read talks about using hydrogen fuel cells that convert chemical energy to electrical energy...

 

[dmccarty]

That's not going to fly, not unless they find a cheap non-polluting way to make hydrogen. Maybe from solar or wind or if it every happens, fusion energy.

Well, that was what I said in the post. It makes perfect sense to use renewables to make Hydrogen because it can be stored and used later.

When the wind does not blow, the electrons do no flow.

If one has not stored the power created from renewable energy, one will have to do without, or turn on the nukes, coal, and gas fire plants. But given many places are tearing down coal and nuke stations one is only left with gas.

After my earlier post, I saw this on the Wall Street Journal, Energy Prices in Europe Hit Records After Wind Stops Blowing, which is behind a paywall.

Natural gas and electricity markets were already surging in Europe when a fresh catalyst emerged: The wind in the stormy North Sea stopped blowing.

The sudden slowdown in wind-driven electricity production off the coast of the U.K. in recent weeks whipsawed through regional energy markets. Gas and coal-fired electricity plants were called in to make up the shortfall from wind.

Natural-gas prices, already boosted by the pandemic recovery and a lack of fuel in storage caverns and tanks, hit all-time highs. Thermal coal, long shunned for its carbon emissions, has emerged from a long price slump as utilities are forced to turn on backup power sources.

The episode underscored the precarious state the region’s energy markets face heading into the long European winter. The electricity price shock was most acute in the U.K., which has leaned on wind farms to eradicate net carbon emissions by 2050. Prices for carbon credits, which electricity producers need to burn fossil fuels, are at records, too.

At their peak, U.K. electricity prices had more than doubled in September and were almost seven times as high as at the same point in 2020. Power markets also jumped in France, the Netherlands and Germany.

Prices for power to be dispatched the next day rocketed to £285 a megawatt hour in the U.K. when wind speeds dropped last week, according to ICIS. That is equivalent to $395 a megawatt hour and marked a record on figures going back to 1999.

They UK papers are talking about consumers paying 18% more for power in October on top of an increase of 36% in the last seven months. That is a huge increase on the cost of power as they head into winter. The UK cost per KWH is $.27 while Germany is $.39 per KWH. Not sure if that includes the price hikes that just happened.

Later,
Dan

 

[dmccarty]

Actually they're not just like trains unless you are talking about using hydrogen to fuel an ICE to power a generator to power the electric motors...do the prototypes use this technology ?
Everything I've read talks about using hydrogen fuel cells that convert chemical energy to electrical energy...

The technology exists to use hydrogen to produce power in fuel cells as well as burning hydrogen in an ICE.

Toyota is talking about both.

Later,
Dan

 

[MossRoad]

Actually they're not just like trains unless you are talking about using hydrogen to fuel an ICE to power a generator to power the electric motors...do the prototypes use this technology ?
Everything I've read talks about using hydrogen fuel cells that convert chemical energy to electrical energy...

It's fuel that has to be consumed to produce electricity.

A pure electric car would have only batteries or a cord.

 

[/pine]

It's fuel that has to be consumed to produce electricity.

A pure electric car would have only batteries or a cord.

LoL...
Fuel cells and batteries are a lot alike...In the case of the former electricity is produced as long as fuel is supplied...in the case of the latter the battery must be recharged from fuel that is converted to electricity by an off board entity...

What's the difference in electricity made from fossil fuel and stored in a battery and electricity made from a chemical reaction?...they both will power the same electric motors etc...

 

[3930dave]

They UK papers are talking about consumers paying 18% more for power in October on top of an increase of 36% in the last seven months. That is a huge increase on the cost of power as they head into winter. The UK cost per KWH is $.27 while Germany is $.39 per KWH. Not sure if that includes the price hikes that just happened.

Later,
Dan

Calculus made simple.....

Make electricity really expensive...... Range Anxiety for us non-1%'ers approaches zero.....

Rgds, D.

 

[SylvainG]

The difference in US prices and many places in the world is simply due to taxes.

The huge problem with renewable energy is that it is intermittent and requires energy storage. Batteries are very expensive any way you slice and dice them, especially if one needs to run HVAC. Some countries in Europe are pushing to get rid of all house heating via oil and gas along with wood and peat. Where the %^&*()_ are they going to get the power to heat homes? They are getting rid of coal, oil and nuke power plants and replacing with solar and wind. Without huge, efficient and cheap energy storage, they are going to be in a world of hurt....

Some US states are following this path too.

The advantage of Hydrogen is that it can be stored, though storage is not as simple as oil. One can use renewable power to create Hydrogen. The Shetland Islands, which ironically have huge oil and gas reserves around them, also has very windy conditions and produces more wind power than they can use. They are using some of that power to create Hydrogen to power things. It might not be the most efficient to use the wind to produce power, which then creates Hydrogen that is then used to produce power, or directly run an engine, but if one has plenty of renewable power, does it need to be the most efficient?

We already have high inflation and it is only going to get worse. Fuel prices are the tip of the iceberg. Our fuel usage is minimal because of the pandemic. If it wasn't because of my second job, I would be only using 30-60 gallons of diesel a year vs 1,000-1,200 gallons I used prepandemic. Even with the second job, I think I am only using around 100-150 gallons. Direct fuel costs are going to be a nit for us if I can continue to work from home.

Toyota is betting on Hydrogen powered vehicles.

Later,
Dan

Electric furnace? These are the most efficient heating sources. More efficient than gas, much more than oil and incomparable to wood burning.

 

[Grumpycat]

I have the same configuration as SylvainG because 30 years ago the #6 with 40 amp breaker was ran to my external garage. My EVSE is rated for up to 40 amps with Tesla in mind. My 6.6 amp Leaf charger draw maxs out at 26 amp draw. Using my current set up what would a new Tesla try to draw? The EVSE seller said he tested it on Tesla and it worked but the Tesla adapter did get warm. I could have went with the cheaper 30 amp but my geek streak liked it's #8 wire size.

The Tesla will draw whatever your EVSE says it can have. But you can override and set it to less than what the EVSE says is available.

On L2 charging the Model 3 Standard Range will not ask for more than 32A.

The Long Range Model 3 can ask for 48A on an L2 connection. Not sure the included Mobile Connector (Tesla EVSE with a smart plug adapter that signals possible current limits) is more than 32A because the NEMA 14-50 is limited to 40A continuous. First generation Mobile Connectors would run the full 40A of a NEMA 14-50 socket.

Recent Model S could ask for 72A.

My Model S will not ask for more than 40A. In 2013 a $3000 option added a second 40A charger in the car so it could L2 charge at 80A with a Tesla Wall Connector on a 100A circuit.

Tesla Mobile Connectors have a proprietary plug on the input side where a matching plug adapter is used. Can use a 120V plug adapter, or the popular electric dryer plug, or 14-50. The Mobile Connector knows the current limits for each style of plug but if you use a 14-50 plug adapter on a 40A circuit (it doesn't know what breaker you have installed) it would allow the full 40A which will trip your breaker. North America NEC permits only 80% of the breaker rating be used for 100% duty cycle.

The Tesla Wall Connector (hard wired) has a switch inside for the installer to indicate on what size circuit it is installed. It will then signal the vehicle accordingly. While the current WC hardware can do 72A on a 90A breaker it can be limited to most any of the popular breaker sizes under 90A. Plus it is smart enough if up to 4 similar WCs are on the same circuit they will coordinate to keep the total draw under 72A. This way you won't have to manually juggle which car is charging during the night.

 

[Grumpycat]

Electric furnace? These are the most efficient heating sources. More efficient than gas, much more than oil and incomparable to wood burning.

Yup, electric heat is 100% efficient.

But natural gas has more heat per dollar.

And heat pumps are often over 300% efficient because they move heat from one place to another, they don't source heat from energy.

 

[SylvainG]

Well, that was what I said in the post. It makes perfect sense to use renewables to make Hydrogen because it can be stored and used later.

When the wind does not blow, the electrons do no flow.

If one has not stored the power created from renewable energy, one will have to do without, or turn on the nukes, coal, and gas fire plants. But given many places are tearing down coal and nuke stations one is only left with gas.

After my earlier post, I saw this on the Wall Street Journal, Energy Prices in Europe Hit Records After Wind Stops Blowing, which is behind a paywall.





They UK papers are talking about consumers paying 18% more for power in October on top of an increase of 36% in the last seven months. That is a huge increase on the cost of power as they head into winter. The UK cost per KWH is $.27 while Germany is $.39 per KWH. Not sure if that includes the price hikes that just happened.

Later,
Dan

Wow, don't know what to make of this. Here in Québec, the first 40 KWh 'for the day' is $0.06159 and above that it's $0.09502. There is also a base cost of $0.41168 per day. I've put the 'for the day' in quote because it basically is a flat rate for the first 40 KW time number of days in a billing cycle. So if your bill is for 60 days (usually around that number of days per billing cycle) and your consumption was not over 2,4 MW for that period, you only pay $0.06159 * the number of KW used. Above that 2.4 MW, you pay $147.82 + (usage above 2,400 KW * $0.09502).

For example, my last billing cycle that went over 2.4 MW was the May-June billing cycle. During that cycle, there was 57 days and I consumed 2,528 MW. So my bill was:

57*40*0.06159 = $140.43
(2,528-(57*40))*0.09502 = $23.56
57*0.41168=$23.47

Total of $187.46

I'm heating with electricity as well (baseboards) so that bill includes my heating (and water heating), although we don't heat much in May and even less in June. My worse billing cycles are between December and April. During that period, it's about $200 to $300 per month.