Cheap FEL cylinders keep bending

ruffdog

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The point made by the Messicks video is don't back drag with the curl cylinders fully extended. Same as what some of us has been saying. If you have the cylinder only half extended, then the overlap between cylinder barrel/rod/piston is much more and will keep the cylinder straight.
 

AchingBack

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One thing has became clear to me after all the ranting and raving in this post; the next time I buy a tractor I am going to pay close attention to the design of the curl rams. In general the shorter they are, the larger in diameter they are, the less they are apt to bend. As I do a quick look I see significant variance in curl ram design from tractor to tractor.

I keep hearing "Do not back drag with the FEL!". I have been doing it for years, so drastically as doing it with my front tires lifted off the ground, and have never had a problem. Probably due to my dumb luck of having a decently designed ram setup on the curl.
The critical factor is the angle of the bucket when back dragging. My loader manufacturer, KMW, states: maximum angle of 15 degrees. I've never understood why people back drag with the wheels off the ground.
 

Cougsfan

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The critical factor is the angle of the bucket when back dragging. My loader manufacturer, KMW, states: maximum angle of 15 degrees. I've never understood why people back drag with the wheels off the ground.
I do it with the wheels off the ground when I want to maximize compaction of the soil I am leveling. It definitely helps. I don't probably ever use much more of angle of 15 degrees when back dragging. If I want to cut into the dirt (which the steep angle would do) I either use the FEL going forward or a box blade.
 

not2old

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I've been back dragging on my GC lots since I got it. I'm very careful when going forward and never go too fast in case I hit something solid. I've hit things solid enough to stall the motor two or three times but did no damage. Going backwards I've put the cutting edge vertical all the time. There are times the tractor doesn't have the power to move and I give it all it's got and wiggle the curl to get it started. Either the hydraulics are very well designed or I've been very lucky. After reading this thread I'll treat my machine with a little more respect.
 

lpakiz

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A technique I use is to back drag with the HEEL of the bucket. You can see exactly how much material is either accumulating or disappearing. I use the nose of the bucket as a depth gauge, to regulate how aggressive the heel cuts.
When you get to the end of the stretch, lift the bucket and keep backing up until any leftovers are in front of the bucket. Then, don’t change the angle much, just so the cutting edge doesn’t penetrate, and drive forward, scrubbing the material under the bottom of the bucket. Usually, the front wheels are off the ground in both directions.
 

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The critical factor is the angle of the bucket when back dragging. My loader manufacturer, KMW, states: maximum angle of 15 degrees. I've never understood why people back drag with the wheels off the ground.

I’m sure they’re going or recommend a low angle or no angle but realistically it’s ok up to 45 degrees.
 

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Is the idea here that the back dragging made dynamic shock waves in the hydraulic line that went over its psi rating?
I'm thinking there was a fault there ready to go, and it would've happened soon enough even without the back dragging.
No, I don't think so. Fault was me, not the equipment. At least in my case it didn't involve anything as complex as dynamic shock waves in anything. It was me operating the tractor such that I put terrific downward force into hard clay with bucket and then dragged the bucket tip in reverse as hard as I could. The mechanics of that are lengthy to describe in words but look at any bucket/loader photo and you can see that when the bucket is tip down vertically and you back up while shoving it into the ground you produce force compressing the bucket cylinders toward retraction. Not powered by the hydraulics at all, but powered by the force on the bucket through the connections to the cylinders. Such force against the cylinders is not limited by hydraulic pumps and thus not subject to safe pressure level protections. That's what people are talking about in concerns about back dragging.
 

AchingBack

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To increase compaction, one thing you can do when back dragging is have a load of material in the bucket.
 

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I’m sure they’re going or recommend a low angle or no angle but realistically it’s ok up to 45 degrees.

I'd agree with that. We all like to keep the angle less, but it varies with the job. You definitely don't want to have so much angle it catches when backdragging.

Someone mentioned using the back of the bucket instead of the lip. That depends on the bucket shape, but it's a nice technique if the bucket is shaped right. I've always wondered about making up something so that the back of the bucket would work even better for back dragging and compacting. Then the front edge would just be a final smoothing.

I use the wheel brakes a lot when backdragging & bet others do too. I usually try to keep the front tires just barely touching the ground, but don't care if they rise up clear off the ground.
rScotty
 
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kwbretired

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I have a question. Is there any reason the fel on a tractor can’t be designed like the case 580 backhoe where the cylinders are completely sucked in with the bucket rolled all the wat down. No way to bend cylinder with this design. I tried to load a pic of what I was talking about but don’t know how apparently.
 

KWentling

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I have a question. Is there any reason the fel on a tractor can’t be designed like the case 580 backhoe where the cylinders are completely sucked in with the bucket rolled all the wat down. No way to bend cylinder with this design. I tried to load a pic of what I was talking about but don’t know how apparently.
I would guess the major reason is cost. There are lots of benefits to that system. Probably not deemed necessary on a lower capacity CUT, utility, or farm tractor application.
 

ruffdog

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......or just spend more money on better cylinders that have more overlap at full extension?
 

LD1

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I have a question. Is there any reason the fel on a tractor can’t be designed like the case 580 backhoe where the cylinders are completely sucked in with the bucket rolled all the wat down. No way to bend cylinder with this design. I tried to load a pic of what I was talking about but don’t know how apparently.
Yea, lot more to that design. Hing points and linkages. All add to cost.

Is it a better system....sure. Because extending a cylinder has more power than retracting. So they design like that to get more rollback power. Not really something these light CUT's are lacking
 

wdchyd

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Case 580’s and other heavy equipment manufacturers use hyd valves with work port reliefs set at different values to protect the cylinders from induced loads. Although they can still bend a hyd rod it’s not as common compared to tractor cylinders with no work port relief.
 

4570Man

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I have a question. Is there any reason the fel on a tractor can’t be designed like the case 580 backhoe where the cylinders are completely sucked in with the bucket rolled all the wat down. No way to bend cylinder with this design. I tried to load a pic of what I was talking about but don’t know how apparently.

They could be designed as strong as you want but the cost would be so high that nobody would buy them. At the end of the day tractors aren’t construction equipment. They have loaders not dozer arms. A tractor isn’t designed to and won’t take much abuse. If you want to abuse something and it take it you should buy a CTL or a real dozer. People think they paid so much money for their tractors that they should be indestructible. But in reality they cost 1/2 or 1/3 what construction equipment does.
 

4570Man

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Case 580’s and other heavy equipment manufacturers use hyd valves with work port reliefs set at different values to protect the cylinders from induced loads. Although they can still bend a hyd rod it’s not as common compared to tractor cylinders with no work port relief.

I’ve never noticed my backhoe to have a work relief port but my skid steer does. But the way the front cylinder is designed on the backhoe it would be nearly impossible to damage. You’d have to do something way outside of intended use like ramming a stump at full speed to have any chance of hurting it.
IMG_0862.JPG
 

KWentling

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Case 580’s and other heavy equipment manufacturers use hyd valves with work port reliefs set at different values to protect the cylinders from induced loads. Although they can still bend a hyd rod it’s not as common compared to tractor cylinders with no work port relief.
I believe construction equipment also tends to use induction hardened rods too, at least that's what I saw in my time in a shop that rebuilt cylinders.
 

wdchyd

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KWentling, also the IHCP comes only in higher tensile strength at 100ksi. Many non hardened is 50k, 75k and 85k.
 

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IF, I had a dollar for every time I have back dragged with my loader, I'd easily have the money to go buy a NEW farm tractor with a loader on it!

Of course, I'd buy it with another ALO loader on it, as they are built tough enough that back dragging doesn't hurt them.

SR
 

4570Man

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IF, I had a dollar for every time I have back dragged with my loader, I'd easily have the money to go buy a NEW farm tractor with a loader on it!

Of course, I'd buy it with another ALO loader on it, as they are built tough enough that back dragging doesn't hurt them.

SR

Put your bucket at 90 degrees and pull on a stump and let’s see how it handles it. Now I’m sure you’re going to fire back with you’re not stupid and don’t treat your equipment like that. But that’s how the newbies are tearing up their loader. Nobody ever hurt their loader with the bucket at 45 degrees or less dragging across dirt.
 

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k0ua

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They’ll survive back dragging with the bucket at 45 degrees. It’s when you roll it to 90 degrees that problems happen.
I prefer back dragging with the bucket in float. Yes it takes a few more passes that way, but I have the time, and is much less stressful. I will "rake down" gravel from a pile or something like that where I know I am not going to hit a rock or old tree stump and cause shock, but over ground I do it in float with not much bucket angle. It always just floats over anything I hit. Been doing it since 1991, and I do it a lot. Have never broken anything.
 

LD1

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Regarding the videos little bill posted in post #176, I found the third video with the kubotas the most interesting.

That was a LONG stump bucket. I gotta wonder why they had it on the smaller tractor though?

But none the less....the operator illustrated good technique. Both tractors actually with regard to back dragging.

The operator on the smaller one with the stump bucket never back dragged with the bucket dumped all the way. And resisted the urge to put that vertical (fully dumped) bucket in the ground to try and wiggle it in. And he made sure it didnt drag the ground when fully dumped.

Look at 3:11 in the video....its easy to see that if one "wanted" to....they could probably very easily bend them cylinder rods

stump bucket.PNG

As it sits in this pic....that stump bucket has about 10:1 mechanical advantage over them cylinders. About double what the standard bucket for that tractor would have.
 

KWentling

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Another interesting thing I found on that Case 530 was the hydraulic cylinder at the base of the loader, near where it's anchored to the frame.View attachment 723459
View attachment 723460
That may be a form of hydraulic self leveling. It would use the flow generated by the boom movement to supplement or detract from the curl cylinders.
 

Dmacleo

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I work landscaping with my personal gc2400, company I also work with had gc1710tlb and now uses gc1723 I and others also use.
I also use neighbors gc1725M.
lot of back dragging involved.
very seldom do we get front tires off ground, if we do its only for few (2-4ft) feet just to get the pile dispersed.
we OFTEN will go 3/4 curl down (lip of bucket past the vertical plane so as to actually pull material) and drag back but lip is never on ground and tires not raised.
then we use the float mode gc series has after using non float to disperse.
I prob have 200 + hours (no shit) doing it this way on the gc series (and about 30 hours on an MF1532 but no float mode) with zero cylinder damage.
BUT...I and the others always watch...you can tell when stressing cylinders.
 

LittleBill21

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Well i guess im going to break my mahindra loader. my front tires are off the ground more than they are on the ground when using the loader. i am routinely back dragging.
 

the old grind

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That may be a form of hydraulic self leveling. It would use the flow generated by the boom movement to supplement or detract from the curl cylinders.
I suspect proportioning the cylinder sizes could make plumbing simplest/er and the self-leveling 'close enough' if not consistent. I'd also be interested in seeing the circuits.

IMO, that part of tractor hydraulics (& trouble-shooting, etc) is more fun than backing up a guy who can't tell ORB from BSPP w/o-ring. (they're out there)
 
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JWR

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IF, I had a dollar for every time I have back dragged with my loader, I'd easily have the money to go buy a NEW farm tractor with a loader on it!

Of course, I'd buy it with another ALO loader on it, as they are built tough enough that back dragging doesn't hurt them.

SR
Which OEM loaders are made by ALO ? I'm not asking to name every one but generally which brands?
 

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Back dragging is not a crime!!! :) It all depends on how it's done, what attachment is being used and how hard it's being used, as it's been pointed out before.
 

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Which OEM loaders are made by ALO ? I'm not asking to name every one but generally which brands?
Off the top of my head, in OEM farm tractors, many or most Massey, NH, Fendt, many of the European models like Deutz, SAME ect... The loader on my AGCO 5660, I bought that ALO loader, and installed it myself...

I've used many loaders, but ALO are the best loaders I've ever owned or used, I have two and both are VERY high-quality loaders... I believe ALO invented the loader for farm tractors, and as far as I'm concerned, they are still the leaders...

As for back blading with the bucket edge pointed straight down, I've done it too many times to count, including having the front end up off the ground.

SR
 

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another video of tim, look at all those angles and back dragging..... tires not even close to the ground. Someone should tell him its not a dozer....lol

 

the old grind

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I suggest some operators make up for risky operations by being much more skilled if not more experienced. We're not all like Rob & others too, buying 'enough tractor' vs a CUT and stretching its potential. It's a thin line we walk. ;)
 

LD1

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You all can treat your tractors however you want.

Everyone uses them different, and they are all built different.

NO ONE is saying you cannot backdrag with a loader. NO ONE is saying that if you do you are guaranteed damage.

We are only saying that the CHANCE of damage increases the further dumped your bucket is.

Not sure why this has turned into a pi$$ing match for those of you that like to backdrag with the bucket fully dumped. Congratulations.....your a freaking hero and have a beast of a tractor. Is that what you want people to say?

Alot of people pull from a drawbar on the 3PH to. Its dangerous and can result in a fatal backflip. Does that stop people....nope. I do it. I just understand the limitations. But I dont go bragging about doing it. I dont want to give someone inexperienced with a false sense of security.

The whole backdragging thing with the bucket beyond 45 degrees....think of it like a warning label. You can choose to ignore it or not....but IF something happens....dont come whining and crying about it because I think there is a pretty clear understanding of the risks of what can happen
 

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I suggest some operators make up for risky operations by being much more skilled if not more experienced. We're not all like Rob & others too, buying 'enough tractor' vs a CUT and stretching its potential. It's a thin line we walk. ;)

A farm tractor is no tougher than a cut used proportionally. Of course a machine that’s twice as big will survive more but they’re neither one dozers. They’re neither one construction backhoes either. Any tractor still only has a LOADER their design criteria was LOADING things. They’re not made for pushing, they’re not made for digging, they’re not made for prying, they’re not made for demolition, and they’re definitely not made for ramming. Now obviously people are going to do more than scoop loose material with their tractors but you have to be careful and understand the limitations.
 
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Dmacleo

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another video of tim, look at all those angles and back dragging..... tires not even close to the ground. Someone should tell him its not a dozer....lol

I actually just watched that 2 hours ago LOL
 

Dmacleo

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You all can treat your tractors however you want.

Everyone uses them different, and they are all built different.

NO ONE is saying you cannot backdrag with a loader. NO ONE is saying that if you do you are guaranteed damage.

We are only saying that the CHANCE of damage increases the further dumped your bucket is.

Not sure why this has turned into a pi$$ing match for those of you that like to backdrag with the bucket fully dumped. Congratulations.....your a freaking hero and have a beast of a tractor. Is that what you want people to say?

Alot of people pull from a drawbar on the 3PH to. Its dangerous and can result in a fatal backflip. Does that stop people....nope. I do it. I just understand the limitations. But I dont go bragging about doing it. I dont want to give someone inexperienced with a false sense of security.

The whole backdragging thing with the bucket beyond 45 degrees....think of it like a warning label. You can choose to ignore it or not....but IF something happens....dont come whining and crying about it because I think there is a pretty clear understanding of the risks of what can happen
I don't disagree with you here. and I also wonder why thread turned out the way it did.
good operator will SEE the warning signs, yeah I posted my experiences with gc series scuts but I also mentioned good operator will know when to stop.
I've been running tractors/equipment for 40+ years (started when I was 10 or so) and while I don't have lot of experience others ahve on certain types the same basics apply. the machine and ground will tell you when you are about to break something.
always err on side of caution and you'll and your machine will be ok.
one thing with backdragging in landscaping functions is the MATERIAL itself plays a huge role.
loam backdrages a heck of a lot easier than gravel does.
listen to your machine, it does talk to you.
 

wdchyd

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I don’t mind back dragging at all…it’s good for business😉

this one was bent in two directions, and even needed some gland work too.
 

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JWR

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Off the top of my head, in OEM farm tractors, many or most Massey, NH, Fendt, many of the European models like Deutz, SAME ect... The loader on my AGCO 5660, I bought that ALO loader, and installed it myself...

I've used many loaders, but ALO are the best loaders I've ever owned or used, I have two and both are VERY high-quality loaders... I believe ALO invented the loader for farm tractors, and as far as I'm concerned, they are still the leaders...

As for back blading with the bucket edge pointed straight down, I've done it too many times to count, including having the front end up off the ground.

SR
Good info. Thanks.
I've owned Deere (on a 4700) , Massey(on 2660), and Case (custom mated to a Kubota.) All of them have been very good, no real complaints. The Deere loader would stand more than the tractor could put out. The Massey (DL250 with SSQA) has been challenged with way more loads and devices than it was ever imagined for. Very heavy hyd driven brush cutter, lighter Lane Shark cutter, grapple, 1000 lb 4-in-1 bucket, etc. It is a solid loader but wish I had bought a little heavier DL260. Really I have abused it at times, severe backdragging once, sprung the loader frame trying to dislodge a locust stump with the corner of the bucket, unsprung it bending it backwards using the same stump, etc. No broken welds, ever. Still super tool. Have had chronic troubles with the NIMCO loader valve since brand new, dealer replaced it from AGCO parts depot with yet another bad valve, finally installed kit from NIMCO myself to fix it.

My engineer's eye says the larger model Kubota loaders are a little more stout -- stronger relative to their specs -- but not owned one. Look awfully good.
 

jeepcj7

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I believe a cylinder with larger diameter cylinder rod will be available in the near future. With that being said that stump bucket really shouldn't be on that loader. There is way too much leverage - if the bucket is at a steep angle and you are driving forward (and you will be if you are trying to pry out stumps) something is going to get stressed - in this case the cylinder rods.
 

goodspeed9000

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Not OP, but this is my tractor. MASSEY IS AWARE OF THE ISSUE AND IS FIXING IT UNDER WARRANTY along with the joystick that has done nothing but leak or jam. Needless to say I'm over this tractor, but at this point just giving the dealer and manufacturer a chance to make it right before taking further steps. It's been over a week since my last contact, which included a request for details on exactly what is being done, but so far no response.

As some have pointed out it's likely missing the linkage and they will be putting larger diameter cylinders on it. Yes, the cylinders are bent in the video as I wasn't just recording myself working. I simply recorded this video to show the exact motion and position I was in when the bent. This is the 2nd set of cylinders to bend. I watched them bend the 2nd time, exactly in the fashion the video shows. I was curling the bucket downward and at about 2/3 extension they just popped. Tractor was not moving and I did not lift the wheels off of the ground. Cylinders were perfectly straight up to that point as I was watching them like a dog after all of the hell I went through after the 1st set bent. After they kinked this time I jumped off, said a few very inappropriate things, and then got back on it and recorded the video.

Dealer did tell me to get a stump bucket, so that is certainly helping my case. We have a small bobcat in the family so I will only be using it on that going forward to prevent this from happening again.

This is not my first MF tractor and boy do I miss my 451. We beat the ever living crap out of that thing and it always asked for more. It unfortunately was severely damaged when I stupidly left the high/low shifter in neutral after starting it just to lift the bucket off of the ground to keep some logs from rolling out of the bucket. It was parked on the crest of my driveway and rolled backwards about 20 feet hitting a tree and it essentially split in half at the transmission. Dealer fixed it, but there was some contention on the amount of $$ spent on repairs so we worked out a halfway decent deal and traded it for this 2750e.
 
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Torvy

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Looking to purchase a Compact Tractor in 30-50 HP range.
Not OP, but this is my tractor. MASSEY IS AWARE OF THE ISSUE AND IS FIXING IT UNDER WARRANTY along with the joystick that has done nothing but leak or jam. Needless to say I'm over this tractor, but at this point just giving the dealer and manufacturer a chance to make it right before taking further steps. It's been over a week since my last contact, which included a request for details on exactly what is being done, but so far no response.

As some have pointed out it's likely missing the linkage and they will be putting larger diameter cylinders on it. Yes, the cylinders are bent in the video as I wasn't just recording myself working. I simply recorded this video to show the exact motion and position I was in when the bent. This is the 2nd set of cylinders to bend. I watched them bend the 2nd time, exactly in the fashion the video shows. I was curling the bucket downward and at about 2/3 extension they just popped. Tractor was not moving and I did not lift the wheels off of the ground. Cylinders were perfectly straight up to that point as I was watching them like a dog after all of the hell I went through after the 1st set bent. After they kinked this time I jumped off, said a few very inappropriate things, and then got back on it and recorded the video.

Dealer did tell me to get a stump bucket, so that is certainly helping my case. We have a small bobcat in the family so I will only be using it on that going forward to prevent this from happening again.

This is not my first MF tractor and boy do I miss my 451. We beat the ever living crap out of that thing and it always asked for more. It unfortunately was severely damaged when I stupidly left the high/low shifter in neutral after starting it just to lift the bucket off of the ground to keep some logs from rolling out of the bucket. It was parked on the crest of my driveway and rolled backwards about 20 feet hitting a tree and it essentially split in half at the transmission. Dealer fixed it, but there was some contention on the amount of $$ spent on repairs so we worked out a halfway decent deal and traded it for this 2750e.
Thanks for clarifying that you have a history of abusing your equipment and that, despite that, Massey has been trying to help. Excellent demonstration of a manufacturer going above and beyond.
 
 
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