Cheap FEL cylinders keep bending

LD1

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Everyone keeps talking about the brackets, thinking they will somehow stabilize the rod and/or keep the cylinder pushing "straight" or "at an optimal angle"....

All FALSE.

The cylinder ONLY pushes straight. It is mounted with pins that can rotate. But the cylinder is never pusing anywhere other than straight.

The 4-bar links can be use or not used. All in design. Thousands of loaders dont have them and dont have issues. They are NOT the source of this issue. Would they have prevented this from happening.....maybe.....but only because the cylinder rod could be designed SHORTER.
 

Midniteoyl

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Kioti CK3510SE HST, Ford 3400, Gizmow ZTR, Simplicity 7016H
Everyone keeps talking about the brackets, thinking they will somehow stabilize the rod and/or keep the cylinder pushing "straight" or "at an optimal angle"....

All FALSE.

The cylinder ONLY pushes straight. It is mounted with pins that can rotate. But the cylinder is never pusing anywhere other than straight.

The 4-bar links can be use or not used. All in design. Thousands of loaders dont have them and dont have issues. They are NOT the source of this issue. Would they have prevented this from happening.....maybe.....but only because the cylinder rod could be designed SHORTER.
How I see it is the pivotless design is more light duty in that you pretty much can not use down pressure. No digging. Its designed for lifting and carrying only.
 

LD1

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How I see it is the pivotless design is more light duty in that you pretty much can not use down pressure. No digging. Its designed for lifting and carrying only.
Either method can be made light duty, or heavy duty. So that general statement....while your opinion....is inaccurate.
 

IndyIan

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if you guys read what i wrote, the op is in the ar link. he said it bent simply pushing the joystick up, the tractor was not moving.

he then created the video to show it happening again, while not moving.

for those of you who keep think parts are missing. you may want to do a google image search. there are multiple pictures of various tractors with the same linkage. The op is not missing parts.
Yep, its just a terrible stupid weak design to have extra long hydraulic shafts on the bucket cylinders. All to save a few dozen dollars and not have the linkage installed.... Some bean counter won the argument to get that design approved and now hopefully MF and dealership will step up and order the linkage and the shorter stronger hydraulic cylinders so the owner can use the tractor normally. I'm sure in MF's testing the bucket cylinders would lift the front of the tractor without bending using the factory bucket, but lots of people use pallet forks too and one bump of the lever to uncurl the bucket and lift the tractor front shouldn't bend the cylinders... They should go into relief before bending.
Sure, back dragging is a different thing with no hydraulic relief in the system, but with the bucket in float it should be pretty tough.

If I was the OP I'd say I bent them using pallet forks instead of the the stump bucket, the lever ratio is about the same and its a more acceptable use for a CUT. With the linkages in I would think you could use the stump bucket carefully but if you bent it then, its on you IMO. Really that's a bucket for a skidsteer.
 

Bentrim

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Massey Ferguson 245
That bucket is an incorrect application for the loader. Before things get too over board leave me explain the why. I have seen regular buckets bend cylinders when used for back dragging when in the full dumped position (cylinders extended) using the cutting edge to level or spread dirt. This "bucket" is a lot longer than a regular bucket. That long lever applies a lot of force. That is when the cylinder is extended at its weakest position. leveling or spreading should be done with the bottom of the bucket in the flat position. Usually a cylinder when properly installed will take an overload force without bending but when excessive force is applied they will bend. Now as most of you are calling linkage it is often referred to as 4 bar linkage and is used to get a greater rotation of the bucket, it does not protect the cylinders. Note most industrial loader are equipped with them. When a manufacturer installs them on a loader the price must rise. Ya get what you pay for. As for the relief valve most valves do not have circuit reliefs. So the oil in a specific circuit is trapped with no way to escape and can be overloaded. Most loader valve do have load checks, their function is to keep the loader from dropping as you move the lever to raise the loader. The relief valve protects hydraulic circuit from the pump to the cylinder as long as the circuit is operated. It can also be used to protect the loader and tractor frame. Also a cylinder has the most force extending, less force retracting as the rod takes area away from the piston. One alternative may be to find after market cylinders with a larger diameter and rod diameter. Also be sure there is nothing that interferes with the cylinder so it is not forced to bend.
So I guess the fault reverts back to the dealer selling a product that is incorrect for the intended use.
 

JWR

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But if you watch the video, those cylinders are bowing FAR FAR to easy and something is wrong.
That video was shot AFTER the cylinders had already been bent and then straightened. That's why they are bending so easily. But even then they would not be bending if the pivot levers were in place.
 

ruffdog

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Bobcat Toolcat 5610 G series w/turfs
I think the cylinder rods had already been tweeked by the time the video was made. Once tweeked, the cylinder is no longer in line between the end pins so further bending is guaranteed. These cylinders have very little overlap at full extension so they are susceptible to bending during back dragging with the bucket. The stump bucket sticks out twice what a regular bucket does so the loader design is just not up to the task the operator is putting it through.

The brackets people are talking about are there so the bucket can have further articulation without the cylinder contacting the loader arm. They don't add strength as cylinders only push straight...pin to pin.
 
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JWR

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Pivots are missing according to parts diagram.

View attachment 721447
The diagram posted is for the "loader beam" according to the menu on the left. I don't see a choice for "Skid steer adapter" or something equivalent. That's what we'd really like to see. Even without that definitive diagram the one you show is pretty solid evidence that the pivot lever is expected to be in place. What is WILD is that there are so many at dealers, new, that show these loaders without the pivot levers. It appears that MF is delivering tractors to dealers in this DOOMED configuration without the pivot levers.
 

JWR

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Ironic I cannot find ANYTHING on masseys site for the 2750/2760e.

But I did find this video on their website that can hopefully put to rest whether its missing parts or not.


The video....paused at both 0:24 and 3:39 both show a FLx2815 loader and it does NOT have the linkages.

As I have said before, some loaders have them, some dont. But regardless, the cylinders should NEVER be capable of column buckling under their own hydraulic force.

The ONLY think that should cause column buckling is an outside force GREATER than the hydraulic force they are capable of.
And example of that is with the loader dumped all the way and attempting to back drag with the cutting edge. We have all seen that on here a time or two. But it should NEVER happen under the loaders own power.

I have to wonder though.....in the video the OP posted, if the cylinders werent already bent from said activity. The LONGER bucket would compound the forces if used while dumped and backdragging. Requiring less effort/traction to make the cylinders bend. It dont matter if its a stock bucket, or a 4' stump bucket, or hell a 10' long bucket....it should NEVER happen under its own hydraulic power. But it DOES matter if you are using tractive power, and the bigger (longer) the bucket the easier it happens.

So if these cylinders in that video were already compromised.....THEN and ONLY THEN can I see the tractor being able to do that with hydraulic power alone.

Is the tractor owner a member here? CoTHg is this your tractor or someone you know? Can you direct him here....on a tractor forum where he may get more help than on a AR15 forum?

The following are the screenshots of the video on massey's own website showing no linkages or missing parts

View attachment 721459
View attachment 721460
Well, that nails one thing -- the guilty party is AGCO/MF manufacturer NOT the dealer. These failures will never occur if the pivot levers are in place and are doomed to eventually occur without those levers. It is the manufacturer's fault. LD1 has said that the "extra pivot levers don't matter" but they do. With the levers in place no force can be applied at any angle other than directly parallel to the cylinder. The application of force on the cylinders stays the same [parallelogram] regardless of dump or curl. Without the pivot levers the application of force varies all over the place depending on curl and dump. Crucially, with the levers in place the cylinder rods do not need to be extended an extra foot or worse out to where they are "spindly" and vulnerable to excess compression loading. You will never ever see bent rods on a loader that has the pivot levers in place.
 

JWR

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Yes, that is the problem. The pivot linkages that prevent the cylinders from over extending at a high stress angle are missing.

They MF adv. photos are also missing the same parts, and that's a problem too. You can see the holes and bushings where they are supposed to be.

This is all pretty basic linkage mechanics. Any design engineer will get it right. Apparently the loader designer did, hence the unused mounting holes. Apparently the parts got lost.

That's all easy enough to fix. Just have the dealer get the parts and new cylinders and bolt them in, or make the linkages yourself and order better made universal cylinders for a quarter the price. Some hydraulic shops will make up cylinders and they still won't be $1000/set.

We see the problem, the solution seems equally simple. It's a new world of supply and interaction. Be glad the rest of the tractor works & you can get one.
rScotty
Agree 100%.
 
 
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