Clearing brush in orchards-- berta flail or brush mower?

freedomlives · Apr 18, 2017

There are a lot of old apple orchards in our village, that got abandoned sometime after the velvet revolution. Most of the trees are still growing, and there has been some occasional clearing by various "farmers" who lease the land to cash in on subsidies. A lot of the orchard land is actually privately owned, by the descendants of those who had their crop fields nationalized to make the orchards by the communists. Some remains state owned, and at present these agri-companies rent from the state, but often don't pay rent to the private owners, who also are fairly ignorant of their rights to the land. It seems that two years ago the subsidy agency must have actually controlled these orchards and seen that they were overgrown, because the agribusiness that has the rental didn't apply for any subsidies last year on that land.
We live here, and my wife's family owns a portion of the land these orchards are on. We're toying with the idea of clearing out the brush and pruning the trees and then get apples for making cider or cider vinegar and grazing sheep and pigs under them-- to actually produce food on the orchards as well, instead of just cashing subsidies.*
Overgrown orchards - Google Photos
How much can these different mowers for the walk behind tractors do in a day for clearing brushy land? We shouldn't have too much trouble hiring someone unemployed in our village to go out and run the walk-behind and a bit of chainsaw work for the bigger stuff (which seems like mostly in the row with the trees, not between rows) for a monthly wage of 500€.
I like the idea of a flail mower because we also plan to expand our vegetable gardening, and being able to add cover crops and then chop them up would be useful, but I've read that flail mowers aren't so great for brush, though there is a video of a berta being driven through overgrown areas.

* Just to be clear-- I don't like subsidies-- they distort the entire market economy and result in mis-allocation of resources, which is a fancy way of saying many people have to work harder, pay taxes and then get overall less, even though some foods in the EU end up being "cheaper" at the point of sale compared to buying in the US. But reality is reality, so as long as they are offered and it doesn't lead me to do something drastically different than what I otherwise would want to do, I'll take them. In this case, for years we've been thinking about what a shame it is that these orchards just go to waste, but we weren't so informed about all the laws and policies around agriculture and land here...

boggen · Apr 18, 2017

think over sized self propelled push mower for cutting grass around your home, with larger size engine, with beefer blade. and front portion of deck is missing, and large size rear tires (approximate knee high), and for front wheels there is non beyond a metal sleds (one on each side), or a dome shape metal piece below the blade. other words a brush mower.

2 cycle engine trimmer. with SOLID straight shaft (any shaft that bends / curves = no no), with a metal brush blade (instead of plastic string).

push mower for cutting grass. but missing front portion of deck. and instead of blade. has a heavy duty string on it. and a half dome shape metal piece below the strings were end bolts up to motor shaft.

any above 3 items, most likely will require some sort of small chain saw, or more than like pruners (larger scissors) made for cutting branches 1 to 2 sizes in diameters of your thumb.

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you can get larger 2 wheel tractors, with much larger engines on them. that cut wider. with possible attachments from "fail", to "rotatory", or "sickle bar" mower attachments. some times these larger tractors allow for a small little trailer to be attached. so as to provide a way to get in and out of different areas to load up cut up branches and like.

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additional details like acreage, amount of trees you need to get around, length of rows, over all size of trees. would help others respond to you better.

boggen · Apr 18, 2017

think over sized self propelled push mower for cutting grass around your home, with larger size engine, with beefer blade. and front portion of deck is missing, and large size rear tires (approximate knee high), and for front wheels there is non beyond a metal sleds (one on each side), or a dome shape metal piece below the blade. other words a brush mower.

2 cycle engine trimmer. with SOLID straight shaft (any shaft that bends / curves = no no), with a metal brush blade (instead of plastic string).

push mower for cutting grass. but missing front portion of deck. and instead of blade. has a heavy duty string on it. and a half dome shape metal piece below the strings were end bolts up to motor shaft.

any above 3 items, most likely will require some sort of small chain saw, or more than like pruners (larger scissors) made for cutting branches 1 to 2 sizes in diameters of your thumb.

=========
you can get larger 2 wheel tractors, with much larger engines on them. that cut wider. with possible attachments from "fail", to "rotatory", or "sickle bar" mower attachments. some times these larger tractors allow for a small little trailer to be attached. so as to provide a way to get in and out of different areas to load up cut up branches and like.

==========
additional details like acreage, amount of trees you need to get around, length of rows, over all size of trees. would help others respond to you better.

TimberXX · Apr 18, 2017

I've cleared heavy brush with a 2 stroke unit. Awful. A video is worth a million words. Cutting brush with BCS 32" Brush Mower and 26" Flail mower - YouTube

CodeMonkey · Apr 23, 2017

I cut brush on my property with my Grillo 107 (9 HP gas) and a 28" Berta flail. Indeed, that is almost solely what I use it for. I have 20 acres that is forested, but now mostly thinned by logging and I only work on about 3 acres of that near the house and road. After the thinning a lot of the undercover was exposed to more sun and grew up much faster. It can handle 1-2" saplings, but anything over 1" often gives it problems - a 10+HP diesel would probably do much better.

I looked at the photos and I did not see anything there that I would not attempt with my setup - assuming some of those trees are fruit trees.

My main problem is that the ground in the forest is very uneven with holes and ruts due to the logging equipment, so with the 20" wheels I get the tractor stuck a lot. In an orchard that should not be a problem.

I would say that a flail mower would be better for initial brush clearing than a brush mower deck - the flail seems to handle the thick brush better. Later, to keep it under control, a sickle bar reciprocating mower would be faster if you don't care that the vegetation does not get chopped, just cut and lay down.

freedomlives · Apr 24, 2017

Thanks to all for the advice. The big trees are fruit trees, so they're supposed to stay.
After it would be cleared, then I would have livestock going through grazing the grass-- on the principle of high stocking density, quick rotation-- e.g. every day moving them to a new small paddock, so they always have grass to eat.
The overall area of both orchards is around 120 acres, each about half that size. Which I know is a ton of land, so that is why I wonder what sort of brush clearing rate can be achieved per day, because I believe that with labor costs as they are here, it could be cost effective to pay an unemployed/underemployed neighbor to spend a couple of months doing it, compared to buying a 4 wheel tractor and brush hog.
The trees about 3-4m apart in the row, 5m between rows, IIRC. On one of the orchards it is steeper, so terraces were made.
We aim to come up with a business plan by June, so this is just part of trying to figure out what the costs would be to set things up.

CodeMonkey · Apr 24, 2017

I don't know what your labor rates are and I don't know if you can get rental equipment there, but if you can, with that much acreage, it may be more economical to rent a 4 wheel tractor with a brush cutter or flail mower for a week.

freedomlives · Apr 25, 2017

Therein lies the problem. We live right on the border with Ukraine, and it is practically the middle of nowhere. I cannot even find near Košice a rental company for tractors. If I don't end up buying a four wheel tractor (and I then it is a whole nother problem-- obviously used equipment as I know with the two-wheel stuff comes with its surprises, likewise 4 wheel tractors), then probably the next possible thing would be to buy a 3PH brush cutter, and get a neighbor to use their tractor to cut out there, if they have time. There are lots of neighbors with tractors, but they aren't the under- or unemployed neighbors.
Minimum wage here is 435€/month / 2.50€/hour (though of course the employer, if legally employing someone, has to pay a lot more on top to social security, health insurance and other things). Realistically, it is reasonable to expect one of these unemployed people to work for 500€/month cash in to hand, as it has the benefit as well of not having to pay for a bus ticket each day to get to the city, etc.
So that is where I have to make some calculation-- unskilled labor using a flail mower for my walk behind tractor (and I would like a flail mower for doing cover crops on raised beds anyway, though probably won't get one if that is the only thing I need it for), buying the implement and paying a neighbor who already has some sort of job to take their free time and go clear, or buy a 4 wheel tractor and brush mower.

jeepcoma · Apr 26, 2017

I'm a fan of the flail mower, though I haven't used a proper brush mower to compare. I think what the flail gives up in terms of "maximum knockdown capability" is more than made up for in versatility, since it's good at mulching up anything it can push over. And to be honest, if you're really at the ragged edge where the knockdown power of the brush-hog is the sole pro vs the flail... really neither is the right choice. The versatility of the flail is especially helpful if the land is going to be trafficked, such as in an orchard, as the flail will leave a relatively nice and clean cleared land behind. (if you were intending to mow an area only once a year for general upkeep, the brush-hog or neighbor-with-a-brush-hog approach seems better). Plus, you can use it later for cover crops. Based on what I think I can make out in your photos, a flail will have no problem making that overgrowth simply disapeear after one pass and leave a nice result.

In terms of how much can be done a day... well I guess I'd have to ask 1) how long is a "day" and 2) how hard is your worker?. I've measured some of the work I've done and I can do about 1 acre per hour with a 34" flail on a diesel G110. That's a very wide average though, but I think you could get 120 acres done in a month with similar equipment (assuming 1 acre/hr for 8 hr/day so 40 acres/week giving you some wiggle room). You should absolutely factor in cost and time of replacement parts if downtime is going to be a problem; I've hit a fair share of rocks, metal pieces, stumps, cables, and other hidden stuff that quickly took its toll on the flails. Plus maintenance, greasing and checking belt tension (and having spare belts!), fuel and oil for the tractor, and the hour-based maintenance and repairs since you'll be racking up the hours very quickly. Add more if your worker doesn't give a hoot about abusing your equipment and doesn't care if it breaks or that the debris screen should be cleared every 30 minutes.

The flair is considered a bit "safer", I believe for both man and machine. First, it tends to roll objects like rocks along the ground directly forward, like rolling a bowling ball. I've never seen anything shoot out form underneath in an upwards trajectory in a random direction (which I see all the time with rotary mowers). Second, should you hit something that shouldn't be hit, a rotary mower is going to have one big impact and then stop once something breaks. The flails though will have a bit less abrupt shock to the equipment, as the flails will fold back and drag along and the impact will be spread out over time a bit, plus be transmitted through a belt back to the engine - considerably less likely to take the whole machine out with one good whack (done that).

"Big" things I would consider (some I may have missed your answer):

1. Price difference between your options (2-wheel + flair, 2-wheel + brush, outside help)
2. Importance of time, what is the cost if the work gets delayed a week, two weeks, a month, if you can't find help to do each option
3. How likely are you to not be able to get help for each option.
4. Does the perceived safety difference matter?
5. Does the quality of after-cut matter?
6. How much "edge-case" cutting would you do against bigger material that either would struggle against?

Good luck! Is a 2-wheel capable of the job? Absolutely. The trick is figuring out if it's the best combination of price, capabilities, and time that fits you!

freedomlives · Apr 27, 2017

jeepcoma-- this is exactly the info I was looking for.

Occasionally hitting some rock or concrete is pretty likely. After socialism ended (actually, maybe better to say, after the Communist party gave up power in '89), many former state run enterprises went bankrupt, I understand from neighbors that you pretty much went and took what you could from the defunct orchard, factory, whatever. So when I was walking that orchard, I came across bits of the concrete tiles that had lined the drainage ditches randomly around from when neighbors must have been pulling them out to use for projects around their houses.

It may that at the rate of 1 acre a day, I could just get it done mostly myself, taking one day or two days a week depending on the other things I need to do that week. If, as my wife is thinking, we were to get rentals worked out by autumn, then the important thing is that I have enough cleared in the first year to get enough subsidies to pay the state and private owners the rental for land, and pay the village the tax on the land. My goats can even be working ahead of me, to eat what they can and make it easier to see obstacles I might hit.

I suppose you have the Berta flail? How much do replacement flails cost? (I know that's US prices, but if I multiply by about 25% I'll get appx. EU prices). Can they be sharpened to extend their life, or is it just when it wears out you need to put on a new one?