Crazy idea?

   #1  

etpm

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When the weather gets rainy here in the PNW I will stop tractoring for a while and get the power steering installed on my YM2310. I would really like to use a power steering pump but space is so tight that I may not be able to.
However, there is room for a power steering pump, if small enough, directly above the stock alternator. My crazy plan is to remove the alternator and look at its construction, to see how the rotating part is supported by the bearing(s). If I deem the support adequate, or if I can add another bearing if need be, then I want to put the rotating part in the lathe and remove just enough material such that the O.D. cleans up. Then I will machine a vee belt pulley from aluminum that is a .002 to .003 inch press fit for the alternator O.D. that I just machined. Then I can just heat the aluminum pulley up and drop it onto the alternator. So, is this a crazy idea? If not then I need to find a small power steering pump.
I'm thinking I need to look for a power steering pump from a small import car. A Toyota or a Nissan or similar. Something common. Too bad Yanmar doesn't make small cars. I could go to the closest Pick and Pull auto wrecker yard and just look for a suitably sized pump. I will need to make sure it spins the right direction. That means I need to see which direction my 2310 spins.
Thanks,
Eric
 
   #2  

bcp

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Please post a photo of your alternator and indicate where you want the new pulley. I would be surprised if Yanmar makes their own alternators. Does yours have a manufacturer's label?

Do you have a single belt drive alternator? You can probably find a double pulley and run a small pump off that.

Bruce
 
   #4  

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I have no idea what you are talking about doing after reading it 3 times.

I think what he is describing is turning down the OD of the alternator (because it spins with the pulley) to true it up and then mounting another pulley on the body of the alternator to drive a power steering pump. If so, I think that would put too much load on the belt driving the alternator (and subsequently the hydraulic pump). I think you would have a hard time keeping that belt from slipping.

1.JPG


I think an easier method might be to just couple the pump to the crank pulley with something like this

2.JPG
 
   #5  

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Building hydraulic pressure doesn't get you power steering,how will you propoartion and transfer it to front wheels?
 
   #6  

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Building hydraulic pressure doesn't get you power steering, how will you propoartion and transfer it to front wheels?

Pump with hose connections to a hydraulic cylinder. Much like cars of the late 70s up to the 90s. Lots of YT vids out there on doing this with tractors that never had PS to begin with.
 
   #7  

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A lot of power steering motors today are electric. Maybe easier to fit.
 
   #8  

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I have no idea what you are talking about doing after reading it 3 times.
Yeah. - - Probably adding a pulley to the alternator to drive the add on P/S pump. Lot of power going on the fanbelt.
 
   #9  

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Pump with hose connections to a hydraulic cylinder. Much like cars of the late 70s up to the 90s. Lots of YT vids out there on doing this with tractors that never had PS to begin with.
Hydraulic ram assist. I still have high boys.
 
  
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I think what he is describing is turning down the OD of the alternator (because it spins with the pulley) to true it up and then mounting another pulley on the body of the alternator to drive a power steering pump. If so, I think that would put too much load on the belt driving the alternator (and subsequently the hydraulic pump). I think you would have a hard time keeping that belt from slipping.

View attachment 714147


I think an easier method might be to just couple the pump to the crank pulley with something like this

View attachment 714148
You have it correct, what I am considering. I first looked at coming directly off of the crank but there is no room. I even thought about having the pump below the engine but there is no room there either. The space is taken up with what looks like the front end mounting structure. Regarding the belt slipping think it will not be a problem. I think the biggest problem will the bearing in the alternator, whether it is stout enough to take the load and if not is there anything I can do within season to fix the situation. I have a full machine shop at my disposal so the lathe work should be fairly easy to do.
Eric
 
  
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Please post a photo of your alternator and indicate where you want the new pulley. I would be surprised if Yanmar makes their own alternators. Does yours have a manufacturer's label?

Do you have a single belt drive alternator? You can probably find a double pulley and run a small pump off that.

Bruce
OK, here are a couple pictures. There is not enough room between the end of the alternator and the fan to add another pulley. The alternator cannot be moved back because it will hit the oil filter. But there is room directly above and to the left for the right size power steering pump. The yellow X is where I would machine the alternator.
 

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I think you would be money ahead by doing something like this guy did on his ym2000.

I don't see how I would be money ahead if I did what that you tuber did. His setup doesn't use a power steering pump. if I break spindles on my 2310 then maybe no will look into welding on Deere spindles.
 
  
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To further illustrate how I think a power steering pump could work I am posting a couple more pictures. The pump I'm using in the pictures is for a Toyota but I don't know which Toyota or the direction the pump spins so I don't know if I could even use this particular pump. But the pictures show how the pump would fit in the space available.
Eric
 

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SPYDERLK

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OK, here are a couple pictures. There is not enough room between the end of the alternator and the fan to add another pulley. The alternator cannot be moved back because it will hit the oil filter. But there is room directly above and to the left for the right size power steering pump. The yellow X is where I would machine the alternator.

Is there enough room for the large pulley you will need for the pump?
 
  
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etpm

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Is there enough room for the large pulley you will need for the pump?
It looks like I can get away with a 6 inch pulley around the alternator and 5 or 6 inch on the power steering pump. I may need to make a pulley for the pump depending on the pump I would end up using. That's no problem, I have made plenty of pulleys. I don't know how fast a power steering pump needs to turn. I would like the power steering to work at idle, just like a car. That may mean a smaller pulley on the pump. Now that I'm considering a crazy idea I'm really getting warmed up again to the idea of keeping the power steering hydraulics separate from the tractor hydraulics.
Eric
 

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It looks like I can get away with a 6 inch pulley around the alternator and 5 or 6 inch on the power steering pump. I may need to make a pulley for the pump depending on the pump I would end up using. That's no problem, I have made plenty of pulleys. I don't know how fast a power steering pump needs to turn. I would like the power steering to work at idle, just like a car. That may mean a smaller pulley on the pump. Now that I'm considering a crazy idea I'm really getting warmed up again to the idea of keeping the power steering hydraulics separate from the tractor hydraulics.
Eric

Is it possible to mount above the water pump? a nice thick 1/4 steel bracket off of the Toyota. ;)
 

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Most car pumps Iv seen spin at about crank speed. Your drive pulley on the alternator is spinning almost 2x crank speed. May be ok to run the pump at 2x but ? necessary. Its just more power stepping up through that small pulley alternator drive. If you could find a short multigroove/serpentine belt for the secondary it might reduce the pulley groove depth overhead enough to ease making prudent speed choices. - - More efficient too.
 
  
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Is it possible to mount above the water pump? a nice thick 1/4 steel bracket off of the Toyota. ;)
It would be higher than the water pump but will not fit directly above it. I really need to go to the Pick and Pull auto dismantlers and look at power steering pumps. It would be really nice if I can find a pump that has its own reservoir and fits in the space available. I would rather avoid a separate reservoir, especially since the one from the donor car may not fit where I can put one. Still, I can easily weld one up. I have the material, equipment, and skill needed to do the job.
 
  
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I think what he is describing is turning down the OD of the alternator (because it spins with the pulley) to true it up and then mounting another pulley on the body of the alternator to drive a power steering pump. If so, I think that would put too much load on the belt driving the alternator (and subsequently the hydraulic pump). I think you would have a hard time keeping that belt from slipping.

View attachment 714147


I think an easier method might be to just couple the pump to the crank pulley with something like this

View attachment 714148
Upon closer inspection I see what you are talking about. There is a passage, basically, below the radiator and then on through what looks like a big cast weight which sits under the battery. The shaft from the end of the crankshaft would need to extend right through to the front of the tractor and the pump would then need to hang out in front of the tractor. I could use a shorter drive if there was room to hang the pump below the tractor but there isn't. If the battery wasn't where it is the pump could go there. But it is and the battery can't be relocated.
 
  
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etpm

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Most car pumps Iv seen spin at about crank speed. Your drive pulley on the alternator is spinning almost 2x crank speed. May be ok to run the pump at 2x but ? necessary. Its just more power stepping up through that small pulley alternator drive. If you could find a short multigroove/serpentine belt for the secondary it might reduce the pulley groove depth overhead enough to ease making prudent speed choices. - - More efficient too.
I like that multi groove belt idea. Easier to machine too. Lots easier. Cars, especially small cars, tend to rev higher than the 2700 max my engine spins. So a small car pump looks even better. I can look at pulley sizes at the wreckers to see if any pumps are being over driven. And it may seem crazy, but why not, that's the theme, but I could go as large as 7.5 inches on the pump pulley without running into clearance issues.
Eric.
 

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I like that multi groove belt idea. Easier to machine too. Lots easier. Cars, especially small cars, tend to rev higher than the 2700 max my engine spins. So a small car pump looks even better. I can look at pulley sizes at the wreckers to see if any pumps are being over driven. And it may seem crazy, but why not, that's the theme, but I could go as large as 7.5 inches on the pump pulley without running into clearance issues.
Eric.

Once you get the pump+reservoir, then something like this to finish the job.

 

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I like that multi groove belt idea. Easier to machine too. Lots easier. Cars, especially small cars, tend to rev higher than the 2700 max my engine spins. So a small car pump looks even better. I can look at pulley sizes at the wreckers to see if any pumps are being over driven. And it may seem crazy, but why not, that's the theme, but I could go as large as 7.5 inches on the pump pulley without running into clearance issues.
Eric.

From Hot Rod Magazine on vehicles that never had PS. Can adapt to Ag machines too.


1632274165225.png
 

bmaverick

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hey hey hey ! I love the NEW forum and the working SEARCH tool.

I found this thread again on PS for YM Yanmars

 

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OR check out the John Deere kits that fit our YM series machines. Be sure to review the JD compact 50 Series as those kits would be closer to a perfect fit.

 
  
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Today I was offered a pump from a Honda. At least the guy thinks it's a Honda pump. He showed me pictures with a tape measure in the picture. It is quite small. It has an approximately 4.5 inch diameter multigroove pulley. I think it will be perfect. I will need to attach a fitting of some sort to the high pressure outlet. Maybe I can get a short length of hose crimped on and have the proper fitting crimped into the other end of the hose. I want to be able to change the long hoses easily in case they get damaged. They will, after all, be exposed somewhat under the tractor. Since it looks like I'm just getting a pump I will still need to buy or make an oil reservoir for the thing. I guess I will need to look at power steering reservoir capacities to know how big to make my reservoir.
Eric
 
  
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If I need to I will just TIG braze a fitting to the high pressure pipe that comes out of the pump. This is an easy job. I think I will just buy the correct fitting and TIG braze it. No need for paying for crimps.
 
  
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My seat of the pants feeling is that the power steering will be drawing no more than 3 HP at 2000 RPM. The alternator is being over driven by about 2 to 1. So 1000 engine RPM equals 2000 RPM alternator speed. This means that my power steering pump will be driven at approximately the same speed. Furthermore, the vee belt driving the alternator can deliver this amount of HP at the speeds involved. Anyway, more to come,
Eri
 

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My seat of the pants feeling is that the power steering will be drawing no more than 3 HP at 2000 RPM. The alternator is being over driven by about 2 to 1. So 1000 engine RPM equals 2000 RPM alternator speed. This means that my power steering pump will be driven at approximately the same speed. Furthermore, the vee belt driving the alternator can deliver this amount of HP at the speeds involved. Anyway, more to come,
Eri

Looking forward on how this shapes up. :)
 

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It would be higher than the water pump but will not fit directly above it. I really need to go to the Pick and Pull auto dismantlers and look at power steering pumps. It would be really nice if I can find a pump that has its own reservoir and fits in the space available. I would rather avoid a separate reservoir, especially since the one from the donor car may not fit where I can put one. Still, I can easily weld one up. I have the material, equipment, and skill needed to do the job.
I have a few Toyotas. There SUVs so I don't know cars but the smaller one is basically a Camry running gear. They all seem to have remote resivoirs, mine do. The pump is fairly small and so is the pulley if I remember right. I have not had my hands on the Highlander one but I have removed the one on the Sequoia for a timing belt job. Its pretty compact. Its the same as the one on the tundra. I have a first gen Sequoia which was the smaller tundra.
 
  
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I have looked at every vehicle and tractor engine I have. They all spin clockwise when viewed from the front. This of course translates to CCW when viewed from the seat.
All the engines I looked at were mounted in line with the long axis of the machine.
Today I picked up a power steering pump from what was most likely from a Honda car. It probably had a transverse mounted engine. This means the power steering pump could have been mounted on either end of the engine. A person would think that by looking at the intake and exhaust of the pump inlets the rotation could be easily determined. Unfortunately the way this pump is made the direction of rotation is ambiguous. I am going to be talking to a friend who owns an import car repair business if he can help me. Fortunately he owns a 2310D. (I wish mine was a 2310D instead of just a 2310) and he would also like power steering. So he is interested in my little project.
I am glad forums like this exist for the free sharing of experience and knowledge. Though I don't know whether I have gained more or given away more knowledge since I started participating in knowledge sharing on the internet way back in the 80s I know I have benefited greatly from sharing and the knowledge I have gained would have cost me more than I could afford if there was a price.
All that said I will continue posting about my progress and will start posting pictures when appropriate.
I originally wanted this project to be one that could be done with typical tools available to the average equipment owner. But there will be some machining involved. So to make this project cost as little as possible I will post prints of any machining done as well as how I did the machining. That way the info could be used by hobby machinists as well as professional ones. The same goes for any welding.
I will also post my misteaks, er, mistakes. We can all learn from them too.
Eric
 
  
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OK, first mistake. I forgot to say that when I picked up the pump today it already had a short length of the high pressure hose attached, 4 inches or so. Now I have a decision to make. Should I have a fitting crimped into the hose that I can thread my new hose onto or should I TIG braze a similar fitting to the high pressure tube coming from the pump? The tube comes off of the pump with a couple screws so it can be removed easily and then cleaned for the TIG brazing.
Eric
 
  
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On to to oil reservoir and which oil to use.
I was told in a reply to a post I made about adding power steering to my YM2310 that a certain John Deere oil would work. I will look up that post and most likely use that oil. At this I would rather risk my free pump than the cylinder/valve combo that I bought and may be hard to find seals for.
There are several reasons I think I should use a stock Honda car power steering reservoir. Since it is plastic it will be resilient. If I make one from steel, aluminum, copper, or brass, the reservoir will be relatively stiff compared to plastic. So it will need to be isolated from vibration. A metal one will also need to have the the tubes coming from it sized properly for the hoses. These tubes will need to be made such that they will not crack at the reservoir/tube interface. They will be at low pressure though so that makes things a little easier. The reservoir will also need a cap. Plus it will be advantageous to have some sort of level indicator.
Though I have all the materials, skills, and tools to fab up reservoirs complete with level markings, and I can make cool looking caps too, I think a stock plastic reservoir will serve me, and the next owner, best.
A polished brass, aluminum, or stainless steel reservoir would look great. And even though I'm retired and now have more time for projects, this is one where I need to spend my time being practical. I am putting power steering on a tool that should have had it to begin with. Other folks with the same type of tractor will probably agree. They want a tool that works well and is a good value. So they don't want to spend a lot of time and money to make their tractor easier to drive, but will spend some time and money and elbow grease to make their small tractor more productive. That way some old fart like me can spend a little more time enjoying a beverage on the front porch bragging about the power steering install.
Eric
 
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On to to oil reservoir and which oil to use.
I was told in a reply to a post I made about adding power steering to my YM2310 that a certain John Deere oil would work. I will look up that post and most likely use that oil. At this I would rather risk my free pump than the cylinder/valve combo that I bought and may be hard to find seals for.
There are several reasons I think I should use a stock Honda car power steering reservoir. Since it is plastic it will be resilient. If I make one from steel, aluminum, copper, or brass, the reservoir will be relatively stiff compared to plastic. So it will need to be isolated from vibration. A metal one will also need to have the the tubes coming from it sized properly for the hoses. These tubes will need to be made such that they will not crack at the reservoir/tube interface. They will be at low pressure though so that makes things a little easier. The reservoir will also need a cap. Plus it will be advantageous to have some sort of level indicator.
Though I have all the materials, skills, and tools to fab up reservoirs complete with level markings, and I can make cool looking caps too, I think a stock plastic reservoir will serve me, and the next owner, best.
A polished brass, aluminum, or stainless steel reservoir would look great. And even though I'm retired and now have more time for projects, this is one where I need to spend my time being practical. I am putting power steering on a tool that should have had it to begin with. Other folks with the same type of tractor will probably agree. They want a tool that works well and is a good value. So they don't want to spend a lot of time and money to make their tractor easier to drive, but will spend some time and money and elbow grease to make their small tractor more productive. That way some old fart like me can spend a little more time enjoying a beverage on the front porch bragging about the power steering install.
Eric

Eric,

John Deere Hy-Gard J20C or Yanmar TF-500A (same stuff). Thus, the same hydraulic fluid for the PS and the 3PT and loader all work. IF you are really fussy, Mopar ATF+4 as it's full synthetic.
 

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I am putting power steering on a tool that should have had it to begin with. Other folks with the same type of tractor will probably agree.
Eric

Just an FYI, the YM2310 and the other machines above a YM1720 did come with the option of having OE PS. :) In fact Yanmar in their literature boasted about offering PS.

See your YM2310 info here:

Member California here can tell you the 'leaking' troubles with the OE design too. LOL

IF I had to PS my machine, I would go the electric assist PS option. No hoses, no pump, no belts, just mount and plug the connector in. :)
 
  
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etpm

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Just an FYI, the YM2310 and the other machines above a YM1720 did come with the option of having OE PS. :) In fact Yanmar in their literature boasted about offering PS.

See your YM2310 info here:

Member California here can tell you the 'leaking' troubles with the OE design too. LOL

IF I had to PS my machine, I would go the electric assist PS option. No hoses, no pump, no belts, just mount and plug the connector in. :)
Yeah, well, I already have the cylinder made for this tractor, the one that Hoye sells. And now it looks like I have a pump that will work. Plus, those electric units are spendy. I hope I don't have issues with leaky stuff but I do know how to rebuild hydraulic cylinders if it comes down to that. Besides, using the electric option obviates my crazy idea which would deprive me of the fun of making stuff.
Eric
 

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Not sure if I had posted this in the thread here - - -

This is the Yanmar OE PS system for YM machines

Yanmar YM power Steering Kit pg 1.jpg


Yanmar YM power Steering Kit pg 2.jpg
 

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Got a bunch of info from members here on TBN and other sources to make the attached.

YM180 & YM187 PS Manual
 

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A Yanmar OE original for the YM186
 

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Alex made a PS unit for his YM1300
 

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bmaverick

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Sep 17, 2013
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Beloit-WI
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Yanmar YM2610, retired JD 850, retired DYT-4000
On the YM2500 and other models like it along with the Deere JD850/950/1050 - - -


WIP, got to get better quality



Possible to glean info from any of this. ;)
 
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bmaverick

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Sep 17, 2013
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Beloit-WI
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Yanmar YM2610, retired JD 850, retired DYT-4000
Though similar that is not the cylinder and valve that I have. Thanks for posting and clearing things up a little.
Eric

Ah you replied before I could finish. LOL

OK, next few posts coming. ;)
 

bmaverick

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Sep 17, 2013
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Location
Beloit-WI
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Yanmar YM2610, retired JD 850, retired DYT-4000
OK, the YM2500 = JD850 & YM4300 = JD1050

Possible to glean more info - - -
high-res, just click and click to zoom in

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clemsonfor

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Greenwood Co., SC
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Yanmar YM2000
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ponytug

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Mar 27, 2007
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3,499
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Bay Area, CA
Tractor
Power Trac PT1445
They have their hard hats on to be safe but the guy is standing close behind where where he is about to get taken out by that boxblade as it sweeps over as she turns🤣🤣🤣.
I had the same thought...
 
  
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#47  
OP
E

etpm

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Jun 30, 2021
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695
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Whidbey Island, WA
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yanmar ym2310
Well phooey! I have had to give up on the power steering pump option. I found a pump from a Honda Civic that rotates the wrong way but was quite small, the smallest I could find. But I could still use it for sizing. And even this tiny pump is too long. It would touch the fuel lines coming from the injection pump. Can't have that! So I took the pump to a friend of mine to look at who owns an import car repair business and who coincidentally also owns a 2310 and who also wants power steering. He looked in his catalogs at non-Honda power steering pumps and was not able to find one shorter than the Civic pump.
So now I will go with the diverter valve that I already have. I need to talk with the seller to see if it is proportionally adjustable and to make sure that is has some sort of pressure relief so that the power steering system never sees more than 1800 PSI.
Reading about how dead heading hydraulic pumps can cause all sorts of damage a pressure relief valve is a must.
From reading here on TBN I think I can get a higher volume pump for my tractor if it turns out that the power steering uses so much oil when working properly that it slows the loader too much. Or if the power steering won't work at low RPM.
Even though I don't get to machine a new multi groove pulley and make a steering pump mount I will still get to make the rest of the stuff to mount the power steering cylinder. So I will still get to have fun with this project. And I'm sure I'll be asking more questions.
Thanks,
Eric
 
   #48  

California

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Jan 22, 2004
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12,512
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Sonoma County
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Yanmar YM240, and now just one YM186D
They have their hard hats on to be safe but the guy is standing close behind her where he is about to get taken out by that boxblade as it sweeps over as she turns🤣🤣🤣.
And some PR firm posed those photos. She's cute but the way she's grasping the steering wheel with her wrist through the wheel instead of outside it, is something nobody who ever drove manual steering would do! Broken wrist if you hit something just right.

I've had the YM240 wheel spin uncontrollably when backing up and running a tire into something solid. I suspect that was how it had two cracked front wheels when I bought it.

Also with that PS on the YM186D, the palm of your hand on the center cap of the wheel is sufficient to steer it. There's never a need to get a tight grip on the rim.
 
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   #49  

California

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12,512
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Sonoma County
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Yanmar YM240, and now just one YM186D
Member California here can tell you the 'leaking' troubles with the OE design too.
[The first, dealer-installed PS version shown in the brochure with the cutie modeling it].

Yeah. See how the steering drag link comes forward to push a hydraulic control, that then sends fluid in front of or behind the fixed piston?

There's an air vent hole on top, in front of the tiny piston in the control part. In the photo, top front.

When the tiny control piston's o-ring gets worn, hydraulic fluid sprays out of that vent hole when you turn left. I tore down the PS on the bench but couldn't find a way to hold the entire aluminum assembly in the vise without distorting it, while I fought the nut that has to come off the back of that control piston. I applied as much force as I dared on that irreplaceable aluminum casting, no luck.

I then got a second entire assembly that just needed the seal for the large piston replaced. That was easy. There is occasional trivial dribble from the control piston vent hole but not enough for an oil spot on the barn floor. Good enough.

Some day I'll make a wooden cradle for the original assembly so I can clamp it securely in the vise, and overhaul it. Someday.

This third-party US-made dealer option PS simply isn't up to Yanmar quality. It works great but it doesn't have the durability and simple maintenance that make Yanmar so great.

Yanmar YM power Steering Kit pg 1-detail.jpg
 
   #50  

npalen

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Nov 17, 2009
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Beloit, KS
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Kubota B9200 HSTD and Mahindra 3015
Probably too late for this suggestion, but wondering if you considered mounting a PS pump to the backside of the alternator and in line axially with it. Would require a hole in the backside of the alternator and then a shaft extension/connector to the pump. May not be feasible but just thought I'd throw it out there.

Edit--Picture shows the backside of a Kubota alternator or "dynamo" as they call it. I replaced this one thinking it was bad but turned out to be the regulator IIRC.
 

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