bill9068
Bronze Member
- Joined
- Aug 28, 2019
- Messages
- 92
- Location
- Evansville Indiana
- Tractor
- Kioti DK5510, Kubota BX25D, Bobcat S130, Bobcat 742.
Buy a 4x4 , problem solved.
A very poor attempt at a solution!Buy a 4x4 , problem solved.
Shot, shot...
Chaser
So in other words, the road needs to the high point in the equation. Ditches always have a fall line down hill, but laterally, they still need to be lower than the road surface to drain water with the crown as the force of gravity.
It’s a joke, remember those?A very poor attempt at a solution!
I actually still do remember those basic premises from my CE highway design courses of 60 years ago.LoL...So what exactly does stating the obvious have to do with anything?...LoL
You misunderstood what I posted....you should have just read it very slowly until you understood...!
The point was that several replies indicated that the road bed needed to be built up higher than the surrounding grades...I merely pointed out that you don't need to raise the road just lower the ditches...get it now ?
BTW...this is all basic stuff for those of us that went through 'route location and design' courses on the way to civil engineering degrees...!
Ditches need to go down hill...but the road needs to drain latterly to get into the ditch. Which means the road needs to be higher than any ditch.LoL...So what exactly does stating the obvious have to do with anything?...LoL
You misunderstood what I posted....you should have just read it very slowly until you understood...!
The point was that several replies indicated that the road bed needed to be built up higher than the surrounding grades...I merely pointed out that you don't need to raise the road just lower the ditches...get it now ?
BTW...this is all basic stuff for those of us that went through 'route location and design' courses on the way to civil engineering degrees...!
Ditches need to go down hill...but the road needs to drain latterly to get into the ditch. Which means the road needs to be higher than any ditch.
Now your a civil engineer too. I thought you were a world renown AI guy. You're an expert in everything I see...
I must have missed that lecture in my long ago CE class days!Well we could argue with each other until this thread is 10+ pages long, but Graziaka (OP) is awol, so....
I'll just say here, for the record, that I am personally the single most knowledgeable gravel driveway expert on this entire forum.
But I like my ditches to be about 2 to 3 feet higher than the road bed. Takes a lot of experience to get them shaped up for inverted water drainage.
LoL...ditches are not the surrounding terrain...duh...! like I said if the road was higher there would be no need for ditches (in many cases)...
You build the road then cut the ditches...you don't dig the ditches and then build the road up higher...LoL...!
I spent 40+ years as a GC...educational background was a plus but never certed as a CE...late in life I went back and studied computer science (UNIX system admin)....what I've learned about AI has mostly been from reading and listening to lectures
"Crusher run" (usually defined as 3/4" minus) packs tightly together and is what works best.
"Creek gravel" is small rounded stones, and will not stay in place!
Not surrounding terrain? Does surrounding terrain even matter beyond the ditches?
So all your tale of being an AI expert is just from reading? Gotcha.
My solution to the fines being washed away on a slope was to grade with my rear blade, and fold the larger crushed gravel pieces into the areas tending to wash out.Glad you agree on creek gravel!
I agree crusher run holds together best.
However having had those sloping curves (please go back and look at OP’s photos post #1), I have watched the fines in my crusher run, wash right down the slope with running water, this after it was compacted. Reality is reality!
My solution to the fines being washed away on a slope was to grade with my rear blade, and fold the larger crushed gravel pieces into the areas tending to wash out.
Bruce, this is standard practice and I did this many years ago when I was trying to make the box scraper work, but it made no difference--the box still filled up with gravel. Yesterday I removed the scarifier shanks, the front-facing blade, and the hinged rear gate, slightly over 150 lbs. total, tilted it all the way back with the top link fully extended, lowered it to the ground in float mode with only the rear-facing blade in use, and it still dug in deeply and collected massive amounts of gravel in the box.Try lengthening the top link all the way so the box blade rides on the rear blade only.
A box blade is absolutely not the proper tool for driveway maintenance!Here's my recent thread about wanting a land-plane scraper, and being advised by forum members to try extending the top link and using my box blade instead.
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Poor man (ok, cheap sob) wants a land plane grader/scraper
Hey folks. Seeking some TBN wisdom on a land plane. We built our house in 2015 and ended up with around a 1000' of gravel driveway. I put in most of the driveway base myself by hauling many a dump trailer load of 2-3" crushed concrete, and getting deliveries of similar sized limestone. Since...www.tractorbynet.com
Long story short, it mostly worked. You need to get the box blade tipped wayyyy back, so that the front facing blade doesn't scrape much at all, and so that the sides dont hold material.
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Lol fried, you are so passionate against Box blades and for rear scraper blades as driveway maintainers. I use both, and you are absolutely right that the box blade can't re-shape the crown. But it does a nice refresh and smoothing of washboards, etc.A box blade is absolutely not the proper tool for driveway maintenance!
A box blade simply cannot properly bring material back to the center that has migrated to the driveway edges.
A rear scrape blade is the proper driveway maintenance tool!
That driveway looks decent, but should definitely have more fines to help hold it together, to lessen surface material migration.
Why am I "so passionate against box blades"?Lol fried, you are so passionate against Box blades and for rear scraper blades as driveway maintainers. I use both, and you are absolutely right that the box blade can't re-shape the crown. But it does a nice refresh and smoothing of washboards, etc.
And NO, I don't want any fines, thanks. Everyone's driveway with fines that I see here locally, or even here on TBN, is a mess of muddy pot holes. Fines don't allow drainage. I don't mind re-working my driveway a few times per year to avoid the muddy water splash of a driveway with fines. I never have to use scarifiers to break it up, either.
Agreed!If you are getting a humps and valleys using a rear blade on a driveway you are doing something wrong. I have put in many drives and a few runways for airplanes using nothing but a rear blade without a gauge wheel.
Nah. Gauge wheels aren't necessary. Nice to have? sure, maybe. But absolutely not required. The 3-pt hitch doesn't have down pressure, so you toss the attachment all the way down and let it ride. Minor tractor dips dont affect the floating implement. A nice heavy box blade or rear scraper blade is going to ride along steady with it's current load of material. See my pic in post #68, no dips or bumps whatsoever.Except a blade doesn't comb out driveway content you'd rather not have there. All it does is drag piles of gravel. You need gauge wheels and no rigid top link to do this maintenance. Otherwise you get a roller coaster as the tractor dips and rises and carves out humps and valleys. Seldom do you see gauge wheels on a scraper blade. Always available with a landscape rake. But it depends on what is acceptable driveway quality. If you like an irregular roller coaster, sure use the blade. Cheaper, too, because owners give up trying to make a smooth driveway and just about give them away (usually bent, too, because they don't 'give').
It's much different than pulling a box blade. As in road work operating a grader is one of the more complex pieces of as there are a myriad of options for the situation at hand. It is probably easier these days with the newer controls with which I'm not familiar!Agreed!
Problem is that some who buy the rear blade are not willing, or able, to train themselves on proper use.
There is a learning curve for using a rear blade.
A good grader operator is an artist!It's much different than pulling a box blade. As in road work operating a grader is one of the more complex pieces of as there are a myriad of options for the situation at hand. It is probably easier these days with the newer controls with which I'm not familiar!
What are water bars?If you are having drainage issues install a few water bars to divert the runoff. I have a drive uphill, gravel and a half mile long. It would wash out every time we had a hard rain, I cut some water bars problem went away. We just had 5 inches of rain a couple of weeks ago and very minimal damage.
The tractor sales person said we really didn't need hydraulics!!! We may have the local Kioti dealer install the hydraulics as he's only 10 minutes from the future house. The Kubota dealer we purchased from is about an hour away and the local Kubota dealer doesn't have a good rep.I should add - I have a hydraulic top link. It makes using all my land engagement implements so much easier. They will do the very best job for you because any adjustments are done on the fly and can be done until the implement is working perfectly.
We'll look at using geo textile on our future driveway. Weeds in the driveway are bad!I agree with the Crusher Run. Not sure what they call it in your neck of the woods. But it does pack hard. I also think that you will get a real benefit by putting down a matting. I started my driveway with it and 6 years later it's fine. My neighbor has been just using Shale stone for the last 30 years and he needs to Top it every three years as the stone gets rutted and driven into the ground. I bought my matting at Lowe's. After that, a box would probably work to pass over once a year, after snow plowing pushed stuff around a bit
Water bars are ridges running diagonally across a driveway to direct runoff flow!What are water bars?
We have to look at what the driveway looks like after we smooth it out and compact it. I know we'll need the crusher run, but I have a feeling we'll need that 3/4" washed rock.Like a lot of rural/semi-rural folks, I also have a 400' drive that needs help to stay passable, particularly in spring. The problem is clay fines. They absorb water, freeze and expand. During spring thaw, they release the moisture and combined with their slippery-when-wet nature, create mud for weeks.
A few years ago, I took an area in front of my carport 30'x30' and tried a three step process: grade for runoff, add a layer of 3/4" washed rock (no fines) about 2-3" thick, then a layer of "crusher dust" 1-2" thick, which is all rock and about a 1/4"-minus aggregate. The no-clay-allowed crusher dust locks the washed rock together, the rock layer allows movement of moisture over the graded base and for 3 years, no mud in spring.
I'm about to do three other areas this summer, same fashion. Grading for runoff on the base (mine has too much clay for my liking..) adding a very porous layer, and then a locking layer allowing seepage with no ability to absorb water itself. I have needed to add some crusher dust in a couple of areas in the original patch that sift down into the larger rock. With real soft ground, start with some 3-6" minus stone for a base.
Also: if one can find and afford the proper fabric under the rock, it really is the pro touch for road-building over a soft area. At some point, the total cost begins to approach or exceed asphalt.
Weeds will continue to grow in the gravel atop the geo textile.We'll look at using geo textile on our future driveway. Weeds in the driveway are bad!
We do have short runs of ditches on the right side of the driveway. There are numerous ruts from the delivery trucks and the gravel is building up on the left side of the driveway. I'll try to order a rake too and pull that buildup over.I just when back and looked at OP’s 1st post. Particularly at type photos posted.
Some specific comments related to the photos
1) forget trying to crown your complete driveway!
Folks before you go wild!!!! go look at the 2 photos!!! She has spots shown that are mild banked curves, water will always drain to the low side. If you have a stretch of flat area, crowning would be good in those areas.
2) you need ditches! With the trees close to your drive that can be seen, you may not be able to cut ditches with your tractor. Some trees will have to go, while others are going to have roots where you need the ditch to be. Personally, if I were doing it, this is a job for a medium sized mini excavator. Once a ditch is established, by picking the ground conditions it can be maintained and shaped with your tractor and an offset rear blade.
It is difficult to tell based upon the limited view of the photos, but full length ditches may not be what best meets your needs. ‘Short’ (relative term) ditches on the bottom on the curve slope dumping into a natural low spot, built retaining pond, natural creek or other water control feature may better serve your needs.
3) with those ‘banked’ curves, you will have gravel movement. In my opinion it will be pushed to the high side by vehicles traveling too fast. As well as water flow and gravity will roll gravel down hill. You can reduce some of both effects with some fines in the gravel. You do not ever want to have ‘creek’ gravel on those areas. In my area, creek gravel is often solid my land owners that have creeks on their property. It is typically very smooth and will roll/slide always.
An angled rear blade is the BEST way to pull that buildup back into your driveway!We do have short runs of ditches on the right side of the driveway. There are numerous ruts from the delivery trucks and the gravel is building up on the left side of the driveway. I'll try to order a rake too and pull that buildup over.
A man who has mastered the box blade is like the man that can catch a fly with chop sticks...He can do anything...!
Box blades are dynamic GRADING tools...it's what they do...their only imperfection is the lack of ability to angle...
many operators do not get the desired results after the first few attempts and give up...there is a learning curve...conquer it and be proud...
About the only time you see even a full sized tractor on a commercial road building job is doing the final clean up and maybe grass seeding after the actual job is done...
box blades and rear blades are implements made for tractors that emulate what the big boys use...
Thank you Bukit. I'll see if I can convince my husband on the top and tilt. Is it expensive and/or difficult to install if you're handy?Graziaka, I don't recall anyone posting this link but I'd recommend reading it thoroughly
Box Scraper Beginners guide to using a box blade
It isn't a quick read, but well worth it since NONE of the recommended implements are gonna help if you don't know how to use 'em -
Another thing others tend to "poo-poo" if they haven't used them - Top and Tilt hydraulics. If you can swing it, especially considering all the projects you're gonna get into, IMO that addition to your tractor will save you a LOT of frustration when you're trying to get things just right... Steve
Thanks Deezler.Welcome back, Graz. I think your listed out plan is pretty solid. The choice of what single implement to purchase is not an easy one. Personally I find a rear scraper blade and box blade to both be essential tools with different functions. The land plane is really only for gravel driveway maintenance or other loose-material smoothing; a one-trick pony, if you will. Some people like a landscape rake for driveway work, and I don't doubt that they can pull gravel around, but I could see one struggling to be effective with the large stones you have. They just aren't very heavy or strong tools.
Your location of SE presumably means south east, where you don't have snow to deal with in the winter.
For me: the box blade is on almost all summer long. I do my landscaping stuff in the summer, and otherwise it makes for quite compact and heavy rear ballast, keeping the tractor maneuverable and the loader work safe.
The rear scraper blade is on all winter long, for any snow plowing duties, and in the late fall and early spring is when I find I need it to dress my driveway and re-shape the crown. A box blade can only pull forwards - the lack of side-to-side angling makes it less productive for some driveway work, like fried1765 likes to so often point out.
I would try to get both implements. Kind of surprised you don't have either already, with the type of work you need to do. If you search your local craigslist and facebook marketplace, you can probably get a solid rear blade for a few hundred bucks, and a nice box blade for several hundred or so.
If you don't like to keep any sort of meaningful crown on your driveway I am sure the York rake works just fine.We have a rear blade, box blade, and York rake. I've only used the York for 10+ years. ~1/3-mile stone driveway
It would be a bunch cheaper to spray it. I'll put that in my driveway notes. Thank you!Weeds will continue to grow in the gravel atop the geo textile.
Once over yearly with a Glyphosate solution will take care of the weeds.
I hate driveway weeds also.
I maintain my white shell driveway free of all weeds, using Treflan herbicide, and/or Glyphosate.
Of course!Thanks Deezler.
Do you know how long I've been asking to get a box blade? I think my husband finally realized how bad the driveway is when he drove my car a couple of times. He also saw how bad the skid plate looked when we changed the oil. Final factor was that we needed to fix the driveway if we were going to sell or house in the next year or two.
So I want to get an order in next week, but just undecided on the size of the box blade or land plane (72, 78, 84?) (EA or Woods or?) and what size landscape rake (possibility since this is something we'll use at the next house).
Sorry Fried, getting a back blade is not worth the "discussion" we would have. It may be something we purchase in the future.
A gentle crown that looks nice!Fried1765, I have absolutely no problem maintaining a crown with my rake.