Diesel Fuel Rationing?

[mjonesnh]

Thought this was interesting: NYC Billionaire Catsimatidis Warns of Looming East Coast Diesel Rationing

 

[5030]

I'd be more concerned about food than fuel myself. Your vehicle can go hungry, you cannot.

 

[mjonesnh]

I'd be more concerned about food than fuel myself. Your vehicle can go hungry, you cannot.

I would think if diesel is rationed then the food supply and everything else would be effected since almost everything is delivered by diesel truck or produced by diesel equipment.

 

[Snobdds]

The struggle is real...

 

[Bill Guenthner]

Not likely. More likely we’re fully into a recession and demand goes down.

 

[newbury]

Self correcting.

 

[grsthegreat]

Good excuse to stay home.

 

[jyoutz]

I'd be more concerned about food than fuel myself. Your vehicle can go hungry, you cannot.

As long as the power stays on, we have a 25 cubic foot freezer full of home grown beef and pork and another full of last year’s garden veggies. Also a store room with canned veggies and fruits. We wouldn’t have as much variety without the store bought groceries but could eat for about a year without going to the store.

 

[5030]

Same here actually but a lot of folks don't ever plan ahead. Those are the ones that will go hungry. Hungry is ugly too.

 

[jyoutz]

Same here actually but a lot of folks don't ever plan ahead. Those are the ones that will go hungry. Hungry is ugly too.

Yes it is. We don’t store up food because we are worried about a catastrophe. We just do it because I like to garden, raise a few animals, and everything tastes better.

 

[Jstpssng]

Not likely. More likely we’re fully into a recession and demand goes down.

Not really. Every thing we buy relies on diesel to get it where it's going. The food we eat, from planting to harvest is nurtured by diesel powered equipment. Many homes in the NE are still heated by #2 heating oil... AKA diesel sans the road taxes. The truck delivering the fuel is most likely powered by diesel. Fortunately we are at the end of the heating season, so as long as it's a short recession we will be good by fall.

 

[Jstpssng]

This seems like as good a place to post this as anywhere. Saturday is the date of the annual USPS food drive, where they collect non perishables to distribute to local food pantries. Letter Carriers’ Stamp Out Hunger^® Food Drive

 

[CloverKnollFarms]

Best economy everrrr

 

[ultrarunner]

With price near $7 a gallon here rationing via cost is already evident.

 

[Hay Dude]

”transitory”

 

[CloverKnollFarms]

”transitory”

12 months ago, inflation wasn’t even happening... “according to leading economists”. Then it was “transitory”. Even a broken clock is correct twice per day.

The average fuel price just hit an all time record.

It’s amazing how quickly everything can change.

 

[ultrarunner]

Many are sitting on tons of equity... experience had shown how fast that can change!

 

[CalG]

This is a difficult topic to consider without blaming some groups.

It's almost like a plan of some sort..

 

[ultrarunner]

I hope never to return to fuel rationing on odd even days waiting hours to buy 10 gallon limit...

That said... when you think how inter related the economy is a little change can have far teaching impact...

As it is all my contract vendors have added fuel surcharges across the board...

 

[jyoutz]

Not really. Every thing we buy relies on diesel to get it where it's going. The food we eat, from planting to harvest is nurtured by diesel powered equipment. Many homes in the NE are still heated by #2 heating oil... AKA diesel sans the road taxes. The truck delivering the fuel is most likely powered by diesel. Fortunately we are at the end of the heating season, so as long as it's a short recession we will be good by fall.

I saw a presentation last fall from the Burlington Northern Santa Fe railroad company. They are starting construction to double the number of tracks on transcontinental routes and are planning to offer 2 day freight service from west coast ports to Chicago. They claim that each train can deliver the same freight as 165 trucks and do it for 25% of the diesel fuel used by those 165 trucks. They made the claim that they would be the primary mover of transcontinental freight within a decade, and trucks would be more short haul delivery. Interesting. I think it’s a great solution. Let’s see if this happens. They also stated that the Union Pacific Railway was planning similar things on their routes.

 

[jigs_n_fixtures]

Rail has always been far more fuel efficient on a ton/unit of fuel basis. And those trucks have always done far more damage to the roadways than they pay for. Which means that we have been subsidizing the truckers, at the expense of the railroads. We really need to use trains for the long distance, and then move onto trucks for the”final mile”. UPS has done it that way for at least forty years.

 

[dirttoys]

I saw a presentation last fall from the Burlington Northern Santa Fe railroad company. They are starting construction to double the number of tracks on transcontinental routes and are planning to offer 2 day freight service from west coast ports to Chicago. They claim that each train can deliver the same freight as 165 trucks and do it for 25% of the diesel fuel used by those 165 trucks. They made the claim that they would be the primary mover of transcontinental freight within a decade, and trucks would be more short haul delivery. Interesting. I think it’s a great solution. Let’s see if this happens. They also stated that the Union Pacific Railway was planning similar things on their routes.

If it is cost effective, it should pay out for the RR. I don't know what it is, but the RR's seem to have a knack of pissing away all their advantages. On paper I can see the upside.

Best,

ed

 

[dirttoys]

Rail has always been far more fuel efficient on a ton/unit of fuel basis. And those trucks have always done far more damage to the roadways than they pay for. Which means that we have been subsidizing the truckers, at the expense of the railroads. We really need to use trains for the long distance, and then move onto trucks for the”final mile”. UPS has done it that way for at least forty years.

I poked at another poster as well. The truckers feel like they pay their share plus some. I do see others claim truckers come out on the high side. My lite experience with bnsf living in an ag town in the mid west; they were confiscatorialy inflexible, and could careless about bankrupting a small town on a spur line.

There is clearly an efficiency gain for a train vs a truck at scale, however, if they will only show up with two cars, and only on a Wednesday, without regard to the customers needs, then I will pay the extra 3 cents a mile to a freight company that pretends to care.

I don't know if the trucks are under sir charged or not, but, I do know with JIT manufacturing and with only 12 hour stocking, we should probably develop an appreciation for them, at least for a year or two........


Best,

ed

 

[jyoutz]

I poked at another poster as well. The truckers feel like they pay their share plus some. I do see others claim truckers come out on the high side. My lite experience with bnsf living in an ag town in the mid west; they were confiscatorialy inflexible, and could careless about bankrupting a small town on a spur line.

There is clearly an efficiency gain for a train vs a truck at scale, however, if they will only show up with two cars, and only on a Wednesday, without regard to the customers needs, then I will pay the extra 3 cents a mile to a freight company that pretends to care.

I don't know if the trucks are under sir charged or not, but, I do know with JIT manufacturing and with only 12 hour stocking, we should probably develop an appreciation for them, at least for a year or two........


Best,

ed

The railroad was talking about mass transport of freight from the port cities to the Midwest freight depots, greatly reducing truck on the major east/west interstates like I-40, I-80…. They were not talking about replacing trucking from the major depots to the small towns and facilities. I drive I-40 daily and would welcome less trucks.

 

[mikester]

The struggle is real...

Nobody seems to remember ENRON and how they artificially created rolling blackouts so they could manipulate energy prices. Record profits. Big bonuses paid out.

I think the above message could be re-written as follows:
"Due to our ability to manipulate the market and use covid combined with russia's invasion of ukraine as an excuse to gouge our customers, we are going to restrict product delivery to create a false demand so we can artificially inflate prices to record levels disproportionate to the price of crude oil. Suck it up sunshine while I enjoy my newer and bigger bonus this year. Capitalism rocks!"

 

[Hay Dude]

Nobody seems to remember ENRON and how they artificially created rolling blackouts so they could manipulate energy prices. Record profits. Big bonuses paid out.

I think the above message could be re-written as follows:
"Due to our ability to manipulate the market and use covid combined with russia's invasion of ukraine as an excuse to gouge our customers, we are going to restrict product delivery to create a false demand so we can artificially inflate prices to record levels disproportionate to the price of crude oil. Suck it up sunshine while I enjoy my newer and bigger bonus this year. Capitalism rocks!"

And look what happened to Enron. Toast.
Can you prove this is happening right now? I’m actually sure it could happen, but dont know it is happening.
Your cynical remark about “capitalism” is political in nature and belongs in another forum. Although it’s nowhere near perfect, I’ll take it with guardrails over any other system.

 

[Black Dog 2]

Thought this was interesting: NYC Billionaire Catsimatidis Warns of Looming East Coast Diesel Rationing

I went to fill up my Ram 2500 5.9 cummins last week at a Walmart near Chattanooga. The pump stopped at 20 gallons, about 10 less than I wanted. fjb.

 

[Tony H]

And this Administration just cancelled another Land Lease for domestic fuel companies.
Forcing electric down our throats whether we low-cut or not.
Land of the Free or Land of the manipulated?

 

[5030]

Good excuse to stay home.

...and tiddle around with the better half.

 

[5030]

I suspect the supposed 'rationing' will become self imposed as we get deeper into the recession. If you don't have the jack to buy it (diesel or gasoline), you won't. Real simple economics.

 

[barts]

The railroads have had trouble competing with trucking firms whose use of the highways is subsidized by the taxpayers and motorists. Long-haul trucking doesn't make much sense from a use of resources point of view.

 

[ultrarunner]

Isn't this the rational used by Buffet for investing in rail?

 

[ultrarunner]

I suspect the supposed 'rationing' will become self imposed as we get deeper into the recession. If you don't have the jack to buy it (diesel or gasoline), you won't. Real simple economics.

Given the choice I would rather not wait in odd/even day ration lines with 10 gallon limits if high price could avoid it.

Too bad today's CA blend does not keep well.

$200 truck fill ups are not in my future unless I can pass it on through work related expense.

The old 2001 Corolla at 41 mpg is the gift that keeps giving... and it is simple tech.

 

[RancherGuy]

As long as the power stays on, we have a 25 cubic foot freezer full ...

You stated a conditional that is the biggest issue. Your wording sounds like you don't make your own electricity, therefore you aren't much better off than the rest. But hey, half a solution is better than none.

 

[joea99]

And look what happened to Enron. Toast.
Can you prove this is happening right now? I’m actually sure it could happen, but dont know it is happening.
Your cynical remark about “capitalism” is political in nature and belongs in another forum. Although it’s nowhere near perfect, I’ll take it with guardrails over any other system.

Problem is the "guardrails" seem to guard the Corporations, not the Consumer. Funny how that works.

 

[Hay Dude]

Problem is the "guardrails" seem to guard the Corporations, not the Consumer. Funny how that works.

Bah, there’s so many consumer protection laws out there.
Price gouging is one they can get away with once in a while, but the consumer will get revenge in the end. They will shop/buy elsewhere.

 

[Hay Dude]

Railroads get plenty of govy bucks, too

 

[joea99]

Bah, there’s so many consumer protection laws out there.
Price gouging is one they can get away with once in a while, but the consumer will get revenge in the end. They will shop/buy elsewhere.

When all the Oil Companies, without "colluding" of course, keep their prices outrageous, where ya gonna buy fuel? When Tyson, Perdue and the other frozen food makes are lock step in price rises, where are, city people mostly, gonna buy? When Drug manufacturers, like for insulin and other "need it to live" drugs are sky high, where do you go, when it is illegal to buy medicines from overseas and Medicare is legally proscribed from negotiating prices?

You're free to think what you want, but please don't shut out facts. The idea that "consumers" and "producers" are supposed to be "at war" is insane and ultimately self defeating. But it is not a zero cost game.

 

[Hay Dude]

1. When all the Oil Companies, without "colluding" of course, keep their prices outrageous, where ya gonna buy fuel? 2. When Tyson, Perdue and the other frozen food makes are lock step in price rises, where are, city people mostly, gonna buy? 3. When Drug manufacturers, like for insulin and other "need it to live" drugs are sky high, where do you go, when it is illegal to buy medicines from overseas and Medicare is legally proscribed from negotiating prices?

You're free to think what you want, but please don't shut out facts. The idea that "consumers" and "producers" are supposed to be "at war" is insane and ultimately self defeating. But it is not a zero cost game.

1. People will congregate to the lowest price fuel outlets they can. Next, they will refrain from unnecessary trips. Then they will buy higher fuel economy vehicles. Finally, they will buy alternative fuel vehicles. This will cause an oversupply due to reduced demand. Prices will fall. Believe me, ain’t nobody bellyaching about fuel prices more than me. I bet I use 25 times as much fuel as the average TBN’er. I hate it. This time however, I think there’s more than just “evil” corporations involved.

2. They will buy beef, fish, seafood, tofu, or other types of food. Thats called competition.

3. Ask your heros down in D.C. they made the policies. Thats not a corporations fault. Not being able to buy from outside the US is not a corporations fault.

I’m not shutting out any facts. I don’t think capitalism is perfect-no, far from it.
But I dont want communism or socialism. Never, ever. Thats a road to poverty, disparity, war and death.

 

[joea99]

1. People will congregate to the lowest price fuel outlets they can. Next, they will refrain from unnecessary trips. Then they will buy higher fuel economy vehicles. Finally, they will buy alternative fuel vehicles.

2. They will buy beef, fish, seafood, or other types of food. Thats called competition.

3. Ask your heros down in D.C. they made the laws. Thats not a corporations fault. Not being able to buy from outside the US is not a corporations fault.

I’m not shutting out any facts. I don’t think capitalism is perfect-no, far from it.
But I dont want communism or socialism. Never, ever. Thats a road to poverty, disparity, war and death.

Where did I support any of those "alternative" economic schemes? Never. That you mention them and extol "capitalism" tells me your opinions are base more on ingrained Political views than other considerations, especially when you enumerated your "talking points".

1 - That may true to some degree, but, around here at least, there are only pennies differences between stations. I don't know the retailers arrangements, but I bet the refiners are not affected by that, AT ALL. Unnecessary Trip. Sure, some will, some won't. Not enough people today can afford to buy new cars or even used at today's prices, so as to gain that advantage. Same applies to "alternative fuel vehicles". Regardless, NONE of that pressures that Oil companies to lower prices TODAY.

2 - Really? It is not just frozen food makers, but the Beef, chicken and Fish products are ALL at record highs. Why? Because they CAN and can blame it on "those politicians" and "inflation". THAT's called collusion, or "one plan to rule them all"?

3 - "MY Hero's?" How do you think these laws get made? Why to you think Medicare and Medicaid cannot negotiate prices? Lobbyists. Drug CORPORATION Lobbyists. Same for the LAWS preventing buying meds from overseas. Yes, it IS the Corporations fault as they spend Miliions each year on their Lobbying efforts and it is NOT to protect the consumer.

Not shutting out facts? That's debatable.

Expect no further response from me on this topic.

 

[Hay Dude]

Where did I support any of those "alternative" economic schemes? Never. That you mention them and extol "capitalism" tells me your opinions are base more on ingrained Political views than other considerations, especially when you enumerated your "talking points".

1 - That may true to some degree, but, around here at least, there are only pennies differences between stations. I don't know the retailers arrangements, but I bet the refiners are not affected by that, AT ALL. Unnecessary Trip. Sure, some will, some won't. Not enough people today can afford to buy new cars or even used at today's prices, so as to gain that advantage. Same applies to "alternative fuel vehicles". Regardless, NONE of that pressures that Oil companies to lower prices TODAY.

2 - Really? It is not just frozen food makers, but the Beef, chicken and Fish products are ALL at record highs. Why? Because they CAN and can blame it on "those politicians" and "inflation". THAT's called collusion, or "one plan to rule them all"?

3 - "MY Hero's?" How do you think these laws get made? Why to you think Medicare and Medicaid cannot negotiate prices? Lobbyists. Drug CORPORATION Lobbyists. Same for the LAWS preventing buying meds from overseas. Yes, it IS the Corporations fault as they spend Miliions each year on their Lobbying efforts and it is NOT to protect the consumer.

Not shutting out facts? That's debatable.

Expect no further response from me on this topic.

1. Do you have to buy a new car to get better fuel mileage? Theres thousands of high economy used vehicles out there. I see used cars getting 40-50 MPG that are 10-20-30 years old. lol

2. I’d bet food prices are up not because of “collusion”, but the tripling of diesel fuel and fertilizer costs. This dramatically increased prices to farm, transport, refrigerate & warehouse food.

3. Nope, it’s policies that bend to the pressure of lobbyists. Its also protection to American corporations from foreign competition. If you cant buy drugs outside the US, it’s because of a policy or a law

 

[ultrarunner]

It is odd to see prices of fuel vary by 60 cents or more a gallon here in the SF Bay Area.

The discount station is morning to night cars jockeying around the 3 pump islands.

The Shell three blocks away at the interstate is 60 cents more per gallon!

It's the same all over and isn't all fuel sourced at a handful of refineries?

 

[Hay Dude]

It is odd to see prices of fuel vary by 60 cents or more a gallon here in the SF Bay Area.

The discount station is morning to night cars jockeying around the 3 pump islands.

The Shell three blocks away at the interstate is 60 cents more per gallon!

It's the same all over and isn't all fuel sourced at a handful of refineries?

It’s also possible for many people to cross state lines to lower fuel tax states.

 

[5030]

It’s also possible for many people to cross state lines to lower fuel tax states.

Thats me. Ohio, 15 miles south is always cheaper than here on on road diesel and gasoline.

 

[TractorTYMe]

This is a "planned" event by the administration, to make it look like electric cars are the obvious alternative.

 

[CalG]

Many years ago, I was introduced to the idea that the "fuel" availability was a function of demand, and the yield from the fractioning towers that separate the differing petroleum products.

In the fractioning, there can be modifications that push the yield bias one way or the other, but as a rule, a barrel of crude was going to produce X % of "gasoline", and Y % of Kerosene, and Z % of diesel/ home heating. etc.

The aviation industry was the driving market to produce Kerosene, With both Diesel and gasoline as a short in supply by product.
If the demand for flying dropped off, less Jet A consumed (Kerosene) then the refinery tweaked the towers to produce more gasoline and fuel oil. A pretty stabile market. But with production exceeding demand for nearly all products, prices went down. In NO case was there a huge disparity between production of "highway fuel oil and gasoline. Fuel oil being priced according to energy content. More energy in fuel oil than there is in gasoline.

What has changed?

Synthetic fuels technology where "anything can be produced from raw stock"?
Market manipulation? Production manipulation? It certainly can NOT be supply, for only two years ago, the USofA had energy (petroleum) independence. Supply doesn't just fall off when the market is booming.

Manipulation.... Follow the money!

 

[jyoutz]

And look what happened to Enron. Toast.
Can you prove this is happening right now? I’m actually sure it could happen, but dont know it is happening.
Your cynical remark about “capitalism” is political in nature and belongs in another forum. Although it’s nowhere near perfect, I’ll take it with guardrails over any other system.

Actually several large oil companies have said at shareholder meetings that they were going to focus more on shareholder value and less on putting profits into new production. Shareholders lost their butts during the Covid 2020 oil price collapse and want to recoup losses.

 

[jyoutz]

Railroads get plenty of govy bucks, too

Yes they do, and if they make cross country freight shipments more efficient and remove some trucks from the Interstates it will be a worthwhile expenditure.

 

[mikester]

And look what happened to Enron. Toast.
Can you prove this is happening right now? I’m actually sure it could happen, but dont know it is happening.
Your cynical remark about “capitalism” is political in nature and belongs in another forum. Although it’s nowhere near perfect, I’ll take it with guardrails over any other system.

I'm pro-capitalist but I'm against scammers.

It's one thing to sit at the poker table with a group of people and we take our chances, it's another when a couple of players are able to stack their decks because they are in cahoots with the dealer.

You want proof of bad behaviour while it's happening? Sounds like the plot of a sci-fi film.

Minority Report (2002) - IMDb

Minority Report: Directed by Steven Spielberg. With Tom Cruise, Max von Sydow, Steve Harris, Neal McDonough. In a future where a special police unit is able to arrest murderers before they commit their crimes, an officer from that unit is himself accused of a future murder.

www.imdb.com

 

[Hay Dude]

I'm pro-capitalist but I'm against scammers.

It's one thing to sit at the poker table with a group of people and we take our chances, it's another when a couple of players are able to stack their decks because they are in cahoots with the dealer.

You want proof of bad behaviour while it's happening? Sounds like the plot of a sci-fi film.

Minority Report (2002) - IMDb

Minority Report: Directed by Steven Spielberg. With Tom Cruise, Max von Sydow, Steve Harris, Neal McDonough. In a future where a special police unit is able to arrest murderers before they commit their crimes, an officer from that unit is himself accused of a future murder.

www.imdb.com

Hollywood has been anti-capitalist since WW II & anti-American values & traditions since Vietnam.