Oil & Fuel DK35 engine oil level increasing

[AndrewInOz]

Any suggestions on what I've overlooked ...
Kioti DK35 with 12 speed gearbox & mid PTO option. 200 hours.
Engine oil level increases about 1 inch after an hour operation ... oil is clear & not overly thinning so maybe transmission oil leaking in there. Hard to gauge but looks like transmission oil level is dropping too. Not certain though.

I've stripped down the Casappa tandem hydraulic pump : hi pressure seals good, installed new shaft seal but same problem.
Then fitted a complete new hydraulic pump with a revised part number : no better.

Replaced injection and lift pumps to cover possibility of engine oil level increase actually being fuel but still no better. Engine always ran well and smoothly in any case.

I've looked over the engine and cannot see any other places oil or fuel could leak into the crankcase. I can't see an oil cooler anywhere.
The clutch is fine so I don't suspect internal leakage somehow from clutch housing.

This tractor located away from my home & only occasionally used for mowing (which means replacing the engine oil each time at the moment).

I wonder if anyone out there can think of anything ( anything ! ) else to check.
TIA.

 

[tpulley]

Just a thought Andrew, I think I would try an oil analysis to determine what is in your oil. Here is a place I googled and found.

Blackstone Labs

 

[LaVoie Equipment]

You should definitely find someone to check your oil. I recommend running you tractor for a short period, then pull an oil sample and do not run until you get results. Caterpillar construction equipment dealer can do fastest without having to send away. Your JD dealer may also. Someone locally always has capability.

Couple of notes. If it was fuel you could smell it and is very harmful to engine. Hydraulic oil is being deposited in engine via hydraulic pump - it is aluminum, expanding and contracting with heat, could be cracked where you cannot see. And of course water will turn engine oil white.

Sounds to me you have a hydraulic pump problem.

 

[PoorMansCat]

x3!!!! Get an oil sample pulled and find out exactly what youre dealing with,..

 

[Coyote machine]

Any suggestions on what I've overlooked ...
Kioti DK35 with 12 speed gearbox & mid PTO option. 200 hours.
Engine oil level increases about 1 inch after an hour operation ... oil is clear & not overly thinning so maybe transmission oil leaking in there. Hard to gauge but looks like transmission oil level is dropping too. Not certain though.

I've stripped down the Casappa tandem hydraulic pump : hi pressure seals good, installed new shaft seal but same problem.
Then fitted a complete new hydraulic pump with a revised part number : no better.

Replaced injection and lift pumps to cover possibility of engine oil level increase actually being fuel but still no better. Engine always ran well and smoothly in any case.

I've looked over the engine and cannot see any other places oil or fuel could leak into the crankcase. I can't see an oil cooler anywhere.
The clutch is fine so I don't suspect internal leakage somehow from clutch housing.

This tractor located away from my home & only occasionally used for mowing (which means replacing the engine oil each time at the moment).

I wonder if anyone out there can think of anything ( anything ! ) else to check.
TIA.

Is the tractor under warranty?
YES, definitely do an engine oil analysis.
And as already stated DO NOT use the tractor until you have a diagnosis and have corrected the problem- otherwise you could do catastrophic damage to engine and trans.

 

[somguyss]

I will go ahead and tell you the problem, the problem is that your seal on your hydraulic pump has blown out an it is sucking the hydraulic oil from your transmission into the engine. I recommend that you either replace the pump if out of warranty or get it to the dealer for warranty, run the tractor as little as possible to get on trailer or to work area. If you run it for long period of time you will destroy your engine I PROMISE. I have seen this several times, you can either take my word for it or continue. I'm by no means trying to make yea made, but I know these tractors very well and that is what s wrong! Replace pump, no parts to repair and change engine oil and filters and top of transmission fluid and life will be good. I promise if you continue to run you will be replacing an engine and KIOTI will not cover it if you keep running.
I have worked on your ORANGE machine, also the White ones and also on the RED ones as well, I know the machines better than I know my wife!

 

[MotorSeven]

From what Andrew posted, he has already replaced the pumps(IP and Hydro) and still has the same problem.

 

[somguyss]

As far as repairing the Caspa pump the repair parts didn't come from KIOTI they have no internal parts for the pump other than the outer o-rings. As for the new pump installed and still does it just means that he could have gotten another pump thats doing the same thing. New part out of box defective isn't uncommon at all. He stated the clutch is fine so I can't imagine that the transmission input shaft seal and the rear main seal both failed at the same time and the hydraulic fluid is making it's way threw the transmission filling up the clutch housing and then being sucked in to the engine. So that being said the only other place where hydraulic fluid can contaminate the oil is by the hydraulic pump, no hydraulic lines for the tractor run threw the engine and if there was an oil cooler for the hydraulics it would never come in cotact withthe engine crankcase.
I trust new parts as far as I can throw them, if it is made by hand there is room for error, I would just look at the pump again and verify.

 

[AndrewInOz]

Thanks everybody for yr comments. How helpfull this site is...
Well out of warranty ( of course ).
The Cassappa hydraulic pump was in very good condition, but I just replaced the shaft seal on reassy. BTW, even though pump is a special, Casappa themselves do sell a seal kit for this common family of pumps.
But I subsequently replaced the entire pump with a new one from Kioti. The part number has been revised probably to reflect the new Asian manufacturer.
Fit up was perfect & I'm confident this is not the source of the leak.

Yes, I avoid running the engine .. for these tests I have changed the engine oil each time it gets up about an inch which is only an hour or so. Viscosity looks fine. We'll need to work tractor soon so I must sort it out before then.

With hindsight, an oil test should have been the first move, but I was sure back then this was hydraulic oil and an oil test might not show up low dilutions of a similar oils. I'll get a sample tested asap to eliminate fuel possibility.
But in any case, the makeup can only be transmission oil or fuel & only places I can see these fluids near the engine are the 3 pumps already replaced with new ones from Kioti.
I'm sure I'm missing something simple here ..
Anyway, next visit I'll try to measure the dilution rate, and get a sample off for test.
I notice in the service manual diagram, the drive shaft to front axle seems to go thru the clutch housing and a cast void in the engine sump. I wonder if that void is / should be dry?
Although leakage from here would likely always occurr, and not just while engine is running as is the case.
I'll keep u posted and appreciate the help.

 

[AndrewInOz]

Next installment:
( DK35 with rising engine oil level : new fuel lift & injection pumps, new hydraulic pump)

Had an afternoon on site over the break on this one :
- fresh engine oil and ran engine unloaded. oil level gained 10mm (3/8") on dipstick in 10mins running.
- bypassed the fuel lift pump : oil level gained another 10mm in 10 mins running.
- removed the hydraulic pump and ran engine : another 10mm gain.

So we have stationary engine running at hi idle and only liquid connection is fuel to injection pump ( and water which is never consumed ) and still with rising oil level.
Drained the oil back to start level and we gained very roughly 1.5 liters (0.4 gallon) in 40 mins running at 1600 rpm. No more testing on this oil.

Although this engine starts and runs perfectly, with no smoke, the injectors are all I can think of. ( anything else?) Chance of orig + new inject pump both faulty is slim.

Now have dilution rate and an oil sample for testing. However its holidays so I'll have injectors out asap before labs reopen. Will post result. I can quick check viscosity and ignition on oil but really must be fuel in there.

Note for others diagnosing these areas:
- the engine ran fine on level ground with lift pump bypassed : gravity only via filter from half full fuel tank. I started out with an electric pump in there, but was messy and not necessary for engine to run.
- the hydraulic pump can be removed leaving the drive gear housing in situ. When running level, there is just a managable slow dripping from the open housing.