Finish mower blade

   / Finish mower blade #31  
Nomad:

and to enlighten my farmer friends whose minds are confused


Me thinks the farmers are quite competent to distinquish between Quibble and Guible. Exspecially when mowing in a cow pasture.

Mayhaps you could update our Downunder friends with your Fortran programs. Should help them immensly on the turbine design.

Egon
 
   / Finish mower blade
  • Thread Starter
#32  
Villengineer, somethings (technical things) may seem to you or to public to be trade secrets. But they may always not be so for some people like me. I mean... I mean if you know some basical things like designing a blade which will control small air flow "scales" around it is "almost impossible" by the technology today, then you would understand the real secrets in such studies like Gilmore did 8 years ago. What can be their technical secrets, anyway? There are some generalized formulae for the flow mechanisms and solid cutting mechanism between the mower blade and grass blade. These generalized equations are hard to handle unless you use super computers. So, Gilmore's only secret can be in the practical simple form of their empirical function they used as a term in a simplified solid+fluid equations. So, a set of equations with a "secret" term? No, I don't consider these equations as the secret things as such equations can be found everywhere. Solving them equations? Unless they use "special" numerical algorithms with some "special" tricks, I don't consider "solving process too is a secret" - See they are using Fluent and Phoenix(?) packages whose all solving methods are given to the public or to the owner of packages. Experimental study, use of hot wires, etc are secrets? No, they too are well known methods. Data output from computer solutions and data produced by experiments can be secret? Well, yes - but we see these data in their results (in the final blade design.) So, nothing actually is secret there. Anyway, you already have the blade they designed - Just take them, do some experimental and computational analysis and you can find all the data they obtained during the design process. Using a statistical analyse, you can even obtain a discretized form of their "secret" emphirical term that they used in simplified solid+fluid equations (if they ever used a term like an emphirical function in simplified generalized equations.) So, to me, there isn't any real secret in their studies. And, moreover, we are talking about completely different things; recycling/re-cutting the grass several time - As I often said, this requires a very complicated study that can't be done by the science today - and, knowing that this can't be done now is not a secret. So, at the best, re-cut the grass several times can be considered only "lucky" output rather than "designed" output.

John Deere like companies usually use facilities of other research institutes or universities where scholars of universities are working. They usually publish at least theoretical parts of their studies and they can be found in the literature. According to Ray from Gilmore, there is very little in the literature. and I can add that without searching any literature, I am almost sure none of their theoretical studies include the mechanism of "re-cutting the grass several times."
Also, don't belittle such engineering consultant companies like Gilmore with doctor degrees in the engineering. Institutes where Deere like big companies may have more experimental & computational facilities, but knowledge of some basical important things like "what possible - whats not possible" can be had by any person and I see Gilmore staffs too may not be different than professors at Deere institutes. Look here - I personally don't have any scientific facility now, but am able to see what Deere institute can do and what they can not do. No spin mastership here from me - spin masters are those "some"ones who tell the users "re-cutting the grass blades is being designed by major mower MFGs". Just prove us if such a re-cutting mechanism by the blade in the deck is really being designed, then I will apologize from all here. Ps: don't tell your mower is re-cutting the grass several times. They are "lucky" re-cuts due to unpredictable nature of turbulent/chaotic flows. I've seen many many scholars who have been awarded PhD degrees even though they have blown much. Turbulence field is such a field - They blow much and they think no one can disprove their blows. But they forget noise filtering technology.

Okay - this is the conclusion of topic;
Blades aren't being designed according to recycling the grass to re-cut them several times in the deck. Only averaged/mean quantities can be aimed to be obtained and this is possible simply by a simple blocking air discharge path so that the cut grass recycles into the deck and "luckily" re-cut again before it's discharged out. The mower blade design has nothing to do with these. OK?
 
   / Finish mower blade #33  
Was gone for a few days but this was an interesting one to read. I guess the only thing I can say is I am so happy with my Gator Blades. They do lift the grass up much better and do mulch it in finer clippings.

murph
 
   / Finish mower blade #34  
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( John Deere like companies usually use facilities of other research institutes or universities where scholars of universities are working )</font>
Do you know any engineers from Deere or say other companies like Cat? I do and I know that very little of their work is transfered to the educational sector. Plus, just like every other major manufacturer, if an educator does summer work for them it's the property of the company and is NOT publishable. Shoot, we make you sign a confidentiality agreement just to take a simple print out of our facility.
By the way, you're right there is nothing secret about formulas, but how they applied them maybe something you aren't aware of. That is afterall how many breakthroughs occur. Additionally, it's entirely possible that they discovered the changes in the test lab. That's where it matters anyway, who cares what the numbers say. More than once I've seen things work that the numbers said wouldn't. Just because it may not have been design using formulas doesn't make it inferior.
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Also, don't belittle such engineering consultant companies like Gilmore with doctor degrees in the engineering )</font>
When did I belittle them? All I said was that often consultants have to pick up a specific application that they know very little about. The usually have a pretty steep learning curve to get to the same understanding of an application compared to someone who has been working with it all the time. That's not a slam, that's just reality.
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( As I often said, this requires a very complicated study that can't be done by the science today - and, knowing that this can't be done now is not a secret )</font>
Are you omnipotent? How can you, in Turkey, possiblely know for certain the capabilities of manufacturers on the otherside of the earth? Do you have a direct line to every VP of engineering in the implement manufacturing field to keep you abreast of every new idea or breakthrough? Just because you can't do it doesn't mean someone else can't.
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Just prove us if such a re-cutting mechanism by the blade in the deck is really being designed, then I will apologize from all here. Ps: don't tell your mower is re-cutting the grass several times. They are "lucky" re-cuts due to unpredictable nature of turbulent/chaotic flows )</font>
Why not use the actual practical example of my little 20" mulching push mower? I've had it for several years and it does a tremendous job of doing just what you claim it can't be designed to do. I also know that if you try and replace the mulching blade with just a plain old generic one that it doesn't mulch very well at all. What better evidence is there? If was done 10 years ago on a $200 store brand mower then I'm sure the technology has trickled down to the $2000 mowers by now.
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( I've seen many many scholars who have been awarded PhD degrees even though they have blown much. Turbulence field is such a field - They blow much and they think no one can disprove their blows. )</font>
How true. You, if you actually have the degrees you claim, are quite possibly the best example I can think of.
 
   / Finish mower blade #35  
Nomad, you need to fill out your profile. Seems like your hiding behind the "TR" statement. What do you do for a living? Do you work on and around mowing or farm equipment everyday like some of us do? Where are you located? Tell us something about your self. I kinda hear a lot of "Blow" going on.
 
   / Finish mower blade
  • Thread Starter
#36  
You speak as if the science & technology at private company labs like Deere's are so better than universities & research centers. No, they are places where findings of universities&institutes are being applied. What does this mean? This mean theoretical and numerical formulations are done at the institutes & universities and they are transferred to those private company research facilities. So, knowing the basic principles, I don't need to go to Deere lab to understand what different things they are doing at their labs. Only a few labs can be ahead of universities & institutes and they are like NASA, lab city in cold Siberia, etc and all those too can be considered in the category of university & institute. Being ahead of universities & institutes in applications doesn't tell me much as they use theoretical formulations developed at science faculties/institutes like mathematics, physics and also engineering. Those private company labs can be ahead only at some special "trial-error" applications.

Other than those trial-error applications,
WHAT do them private labs do when developing a new thing? (Lets take Deere mower lab.)

They use some computational fluid & solid dynamic methods whose main inputs are theoretical formulations derived at mathematic&physic faculties & institutes.

They use some modern experimental techniques whose principals too are again based on some theoretical formulations derived at mathematics & physics faculties and institues.

What else do they do when developing a new item?
Are they setting up new classical mechanic generalized formulations? Only and only if they can do this, I will admit I don't understand their science & tech. at their private labs as they are ahead of me. If they are able to set up new classical physics/mechanic formulations, then they probably have many many mathematicans & physicans or Kolmogorov-like special ultra silent scientists they have there. If not, if they don't have many or special ones there, then their places/labs aren't much different than places like Gilmore. JD's labs can differ from Gilmore only in number of employee (researcher) with more or less same science level (PhD.) If Gilmore has 2 doctors, JD has 20, that's all the difference. (no difference in science level, only more work than Gilmore.)

You highlight "in Turkey" in your these words;
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( How can you, in Turkey, possiblely know for certain the capabilities of manufacturers on the otherside of the earth? )</font>

To be able to seem to be right in front of some people with some prejudies about the countries won't help you as I'm an individual and only individuals can be considered "knowledgable". - Anyway, how can I know? I know from their outputs, i.e. products. Their outputs/products which can also be seen in Turkey are telling me that they aren't ahead of theoretical formulations which are being transferred/transformed, say, into their mower labs for some computational and experimental works to design a new mower blade. Those mulching blades are there after the flat blades just because of using those theoretical formulations more after computers have become faster.

To understand who is blowing (me or those "some"), lets back to finish mower blade and shall I tell how it's almost impossible to re-cut the grass blade several times without using any "luck" of unpredictable flow motions around the blade?
 
   / Finish mower blade #37  
Too much Blade Sharpening in this thread for me. Good luck, I'm outta here. /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
 
   / Finish mower blade #38  
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( You speak as if the science & technology at private company labs like Deere's are so better than universities & research centers )</font>
In their given area of expertiece, yes I would say they are, in fact, ahead of universities and other un-related research centers. Eng/Sci research centers work on that which they are receiving $ to work on, and the majority of the money comes from the government. Therefore they mostly research what the government wants them to research. Industry contracts are often a second thought when they, often accidently, come across a practical application. How do I know this? I worked for a carbon fiber research facility for about a year while I was getting my BSME. All of our industry contracts were a result of us stumbling on an application and then taking it to them. Oh yeah, everyone of them made us keep their particular application confidential.
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Only a few labs can be ahead of universities & institutes and they are like NASA, lab city in cold Siberia, etc and all those too can be considered in the category of university & institute )</font>
You are so wrong. There are lots of labs and even companies ahead of NASA and universities in many areas. How could they possibly be ahead of everyone in every area? This isn't even logical.
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Other than those trial-error applications,
WHAT do them private labs do when developing a new thing? )</font>
What's the difference between practical trial and error and computational trial error? All the theoretical formulas were concieved using trial and error. I don't know of a single formula that someone just had an epiphany and wrote down the mathmatical representation correctly the first time.
I thought you worked in industry. I shouldn't have to tell you what thousands of engineers do everyday.
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( If not, if they don't have many or special ones there, then their places/labs aren't much different than places like Gilmore. JD's labs can differ from Gilmore only in number of employee (researcher) with more or less same science level (PhD.) If Gilmore has 2 doctors, JD has 20, that's all the difference. (no difference in science level, only more work than Gilmore.) )</font>
Again, you are out of touch with reality. Experience and ingenuity are as valuable, if not more, than abreviations after your name. For instance, where I work the least useful engineer in our department has the most advanced degrees. He couldn't design his way out of a wet paper bag. You can't always measure an individual's contribution by the degrees they hold.
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( They use some modern experimental techniques whose principals too are again based on some theoretical formulations derived at mathematics & physics faculties and institues )</font>
Once again, there can be advancement due to new applications of these formulas. Also, whether you believe it or not, I have seen formulas alterted by corporate engineering staffs to better analyze their work.
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( To be able to seem to be right in front of some people with some prejudies about the countries won't help you )</font>
I wasn't making any social statement at all, simply a geographical one. You are the one making the prejudicial statements. I was simply pointing out that you are making judgments about people with whom you have no personal contact. See, I know actual engineers, a lot of them friends, who work for various industries, labs, and even universities. I've been in them and I design equipment everyday. I get first hand information, I was questioning how you get your information when you are so far away.
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( computers have become faster )</font>
You do realize that most corporations have better computers than universities and I would even guess better than a lot of the government labs. For that matter my home computer is probably more powerful than the best computer available 10 years ago.
You have a very high opinion of yourself to think that you know more about a given subject than those who work in it everyday.
 
   / Finish mower blade #39  
Hi All.

Interesting discussion your having. After reading some of the comments after my last post, I thought I would add a few things.

The latest study we did on noise generation was done with the aid of the CFD package called Fluent (http://www.fluent.com/).

The mesh size around the blade was very fine because we were lookin at noise generation off the blade surface.

Just looking at the final blade shape we recommended does not give the full picture of the research. We learnt a lot from looking at the flow around all the shapes we tested.

All that said, the customer probably only cares about the performance. Not how it was achieved.

Regards
Ray
 
 

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