Good Doer goes to jail

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   #1  

Junkman

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This man in Texas saves a persons life when he is drowning and is arrested for interfering with police afterward for doing so. Read the article here. Sure would like to know the "rest of the story". Any of the TBN Texans read anything about this story??????
 
   #2  

hobbyfarm

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Junkman,
Of course they arrested him, he STOLE the spotlight. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Cops don't have much of a sense of humor. /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
 
   #3  

Wannafish

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A couple years ago we had the opposite happen in Manistee Michigan. Man fell in the water - Sheriff dept. Deputy responded to 911 call, then called in the local Rescue Team. A local scuba diver heard the call on his scanner and showed up with gear in hand. As he suited up the Deputy advised him that since he was not part of the rescue team the Deputy couldn't let him save the drowing man. Diver said he was going anyway - Deputy arrested him for interfearing with the police. Meanwhile, with the Rescue Team stuck in traffic, the victim drowned. Cost the County Big Bucks...as it should have. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif
 
   #4  

chucko

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I removed a gator that was blocking trafic one time and it upset a few of them when I took it over to the pond and let it go
 
   #5  

Soundguy

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</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Deputy arrested him for interfearing with the police. Meanwhile, with the Rescue Team stuck in traffic, the victim drowned. Cost the County Big Bucks...as it should have. )</font>

I'm usually on the side 'for' law enforcement.. but boneheaded stuff like this really burns me. IMHO, the county and sheriffs dept. should have been hit with a damage claim so big that it bankrupted both budgets for a few years, plus loss of LEO certification for the sheriff, trainer, and deputy involved, and a provision that they could never work in a position that put the safety of others in their hands.

( Do ya get the idea that this burns me? /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif )

Soundguy
 
   #6  

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Yeah soundguy,
Just because they have a uniform does not mean they have any common sense or know the law very well. Anyone who does something that stupid should not ever be allowed to be a cop again.
Ben
 
   #7  

SCOOBY14B

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I'm a career firefighter/paramedic in a large urban department. We have a fulltime dedicated swiftwater rescue team. We've all been through some of the training. I'll tell you this, swiftwater will surprise and kill you faster than you think.

I'm going against the grain on this one and agree that if directed by the trained professionals who have experience and know what they are doing, he should have been arrested. Leave that kind of work to those of us who are trained, equipped and payed to risk our lives.

If he (the rescuer) had been swept away and died, the family would have most likely sued the government authority saying he should have not been allowed to enter the water.
 
   #8  

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Junkman, read the last two paragraphs from the Houston Chronicle's article here .

Wow that is strange, The rescuer actually led a successful campaign in 1999 to remove safety devices (fences) around the dangerous water hole. Earlier this year two people died in the water hole, now another person almost dies.

I wonder if he feels like the "Campaign" he led was responsible for thoes deaths?
 
   #9  

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<font color="blue"> "Police say Dave Newman, 48, disobeyed repeated orders by emergency personnel to leave the water.<font color="red"> The police report does not mention Newman's rescue of 35-year-old Abed Duamni of Houston on Sunday afternoon. </font>" </font>

What good was their talking doing??? Shouldn't they have jumped in? <font color="green"> (Leave that kind of work to those of us who are trained, equipped and payed to risk our lives.) </font> /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
 
   #10  

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I called the and spoke with the University and they confirmed the arrest. I also learned that the rescuer was well versed in the particulars of this part of the river and had previously testified in hearings about this stretch of water. It does seem that "No Good Deed Goes Unpunished"
 
   #11  

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Yet another way to look at this story, is the authorities sending a message to the public at large. Do not assist us in rescue efforts, we will arrest you.
OK, now I see what happened to this person, maybe it *might* deter someone else, less qualified to assist. it may save their life.

There was a story a few days ago, of would be rescuers jumping in trying to save someone from riptides. I think two people died trying to save someone. Rescuers were on the scene.

It is a tough call. We were not there, so I am taking it with lots of salt.

-Mike Z. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
   #12  

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</font><font color="blue" class="small">( There was a story a few days ago, of would be rescuers jumping in trying to save someone from riptides. I think two people died trying to save someone. Rescuers were on the scene.

It is a tough call. We were not there, so I am taking it with lots of salt.
)</font>

As you say.. we weren't there to see the details. The story in my local paper makes it sound like there were police on scene.. but no 'rescuers' on scene to help the person.

Considering you can drown and be past recusitating in what? 5 minutes.. I'd guess some brave soul jumpin in to save you NOW as oposed to waiting for the sherifs or fire dept dive team to show up (when? 10 minutes if you are lucky? ) later is going to be a different subject if you are the person drowning.

Again.. all we are seeing is news reports.. but it all the world 'so far' looks like a black mark on the police force and lots of negative pr. IMHO..I would think it would be in the best interest of the DA or the court of jurisdiction to decline pressing charges or drop the case.. due to the public opinion on the matter.

OTOH.. if he's judged by his peers.. looks like he won't have a problem? eh.

Soundguy
 
   #13  

riptides

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</font><font color="blue" class="small">( OTOH.. if he's judged by his peers.. looks like he won't have a problem? eh. )</font>

The person is a hero to me. All the rest is noise and I hope it works out for *all* parties involved.

-Mike Z. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
   #14  

tawilson

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I keep wanting to say "do gooder", instead of "good doer", but that's not important now.
 
   #15  

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I guess as a fireman and being on the rescue squad for 19 years I would not recommend anyone to trade their life for another. My first fire chief told me we don't trade our life for theirs so in other words if we know going in we won't come out we don't go in. Sounds bad but nothing is gained by losing 2 lives. On the other hand if this man was willing to do this knowing the risk involved I don't think we should persecute him for it. A fellow fireman and myself pulled a man out of an over turned tanker several years ago and later the fireman that helped me became ill from the fumes of the chemical that was in the tanker. We were both green at being on the dept. and the trucks hadn't arrived yet. After finding out what was in the tanker we learned we were supposed to be no closer than a half a mile away because of the fumes involved and the danger of explosion. The man lived because of what we did and I'm glad that we did what we did, but knowing what I know now I wouldn't have done it.
 
   #16  

hobbyfarm

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</font><font color="blue" class="small">( I keep wanting to say "do gooder", instead of "good doer", but that's not important now. )</font>

tawilson,
Of course you know the difference, don't you?

<font color="green">"Good Doer"</font> - the poor cat that that ended up arrested. He was a "Doer", he wasn't content to sit by and let someone drown.
<font color="red">"Do Gooder"</font> - the idiot in uniform who had to arrest someone to get spotlight off his doing nothing. Sort of CYA. That way he has something to write in his report. See, after bellowing orders to a civilian, he had to save face, no turning back. Of course, at the donut happy hour, all his buddies will razz him for that too.

"If you're not making waves, you ain't paddling" Ted Nugent
 
   #17  

daedong

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These issues bug me, while I know service departments have an important role in society they have wiped out instinctive human behaviour, we might as well become robots with calculators
 
   #18  

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At least for self defense matters.. it's already been proven that police have no liability for -not- protecting you.. that's why self defense is so important. ( You can't sue the police for -Not showing up/up in time- to prevent a crime.. they have 0 responsibility to actually protect you.. just there to prevent/stop crime.

I'd say that 'thinking' carries on to other maters of danger as well. If I'm in a bad situation, I'd better be good at getting myself out of it.. or hope that someone will help me.

At least here in florida.. 'first responders' * save the day many times. It's very common to come up on the scene of a wreck out in the middle of no where, and see a truck driver has pulled over used his rig to block the lane of the bad accident to shield the injuried people laying on the ground.. then start directing traffic while a nurse onthe way to work pulls over and starts triage.. Next to show up usually around here is fire rescue.. who pretty much immediatly go to triage/treating people. Last to show up 99.99999% o fthe time is police.

I've seen cases where police showed up before EMS, and in most of those cases, the officer starts helping the victoms and leaves the civilian directing traffic, as long as he's doing a good job of it. That's how it should be.. people helping people. whether you know them or not.

* I break down first responders into 2 classes untrained civilians ( first to show up on scene ) and trained civilians or 'official' personel. Official personel are the ems/firemen/police, etc. trained civilians are the medical personel who must stop if they see an accident, voulenteer police ( parade duty.. special officers), and citizens who have taken our local sheriffs dept citizen patrol course... You actually get training as a first responder... cpr... an id card.. etc. kind of like voluenteer disaster prep crews..e tc ).

Oh yeah.. got off on a tangent.. my point?

Yes we are a nation of laws.. have to keep it that way to maintain order. That said.. whenever a situation just doesn't
fit due to mitigating circumstances... someone needs to step up and make it right. In a case where the end result was a life saved, at the 'violation' of police orders, you need to look at the end result and intention.. the human life was 10000000000000000000000% more important than the police orders ( in that case ) and some DA or judge or politician needs to step up.. check his cajhones and come to bat for the guy that made the rescue.
Laws without exception lead to a nation that becomes stale, rigid and cold. Now a healthy growing one.

Soundguy
 
   #20  

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The guy is quoted as saying "I had a very uncomfortable night after saving that guy’s life."

That statement, right there, shows me the character of the guy.

I was a lifeguard at pools and beaches for serveral years and spent a couple years lifeguarding at the first artificial whitewater course in the U.S. here in South Bend, IN. I get asked by people all the time if I ever saved anybody's life, especially by my children. I always respond with the truth... I don't know. I really do not know if the person would have certainly died had I not pulled them out of the water when I did. Someone else might have helped them, they might have found firm footing, a wave might have pushed them onto a sand bar or a giant catfish might swallow them and spit them out on shore.

You know when you lose somebody. That's a fact. However, you never know if you actually saved somebody and claiming that you did reveals your character.

As for water rescues... poor planning and inadequate backup plans have led to the deaths of many a rescuer. The first thing they teach you is to always know your limits. I've let several big men flounder in the water until I knew they were tired enough that I could physically handle them. Drowning folks do not cooperate with rescue people. They panic. They grab you and try to climb up you to get out of the water, which, of course, pushes you under. Then you die. Unless you are trained properly in physical techniques and mental preparedness, chances are pretty good that you're gonna die, the drowning person will tire out and be saved by others and you will be pulled from the water several hours later by a search team.

I haven't lifeguarded in 15 years or so. My physical strength is no longer up to par to attempt to pull someone from moving water. I know this because I get winded playing with my kids in a three foot deep backyard pool. I eat lunch by the river several days a week and frequently watch the white water rescue school train law enforcement officers and rescue personell from all over the world on both the river and the man-made course. They do this several times a year and keep current on their training. The rescue staff at the man-made course practice often just to keep up their skills.

Today, if I saw someone fall in the river, I would have my doubts about going after them. Instead, I would contact authorities, shout instructions to the victim and wait to see if an opportunity arrises to perform a resue within my personal limits before capable rescuers arrived. I know when I will be useless to the victim and there is no point in adding to the problem.

Should the guy have gotten a ticket? Once he "saved" the guy, he should have gotten out of the water and stayed with the victim. Instead, he chose to swim back across the river. Yes, he should have gotten a ticket.
 
  
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He didn't get a ticket, he was arrested. A ticket is a complaint signed by the officer and your promise to show up in court to defend yourself or plead guilty. A arrest is where they take you to jail and you remain until a judge hears the complaint and either continues the case and sets bail or remands you to custody. There is a big difference. As for the reason for his leaving the side of the victim, he was following the policeman's instructions. He took what appears to be the safe and intelligent route to get to the other side. As the information that has come out since the original posting of this article, it appears that he fought the governments attempt to restrict this area and has won. His arrest is nothing more than "pay back" and as we all know, pay back is a *****!!!!
 
   #22  

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I admire this man's character very much. The drowning victim thanked the rescuer for <font color="blue"> saving his life </font>, so it wasn't his opinion solely. The cop "demanded" that he come back across the river. I hope there is someone like him around if a loved one or I am ever in a similar situation.

Here's a news story except:
"Newman, who was still in the water, reportedly threw back a buoy rescue workers tossed to him and swam to the opposite side of the river. He hesitated before answering a Texas State University police officer's demand that he return to the bank where workers were still trying to assess the situation, according to officials' accounts."

The arrogant cop is on a power trip. I don't blame anybody for not risking their life to save someone regardless whether they believe they have the ability or not to save them. He made a decision that every person should have a right to make - to risk their life to save another.

Attached is a picture of the rescuer and river.

Jim
 

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   #23  

MossRoad

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<font color="blue"> He didn't get a ticket, he was arrested. </font>


Good. He probably derserved it due to his actions after the rescue. Each and every time that I have had problems with the police, I deserved it. Plain and simple. He probably did, too.
 
  
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</font><font color="blue" class="small">( ......... Each and every time that I have had problems with the police, I deserved it. Plain and simple. He probably did, too. )</font>

Very interesting...... I have never had any problems with the police. The difference between us must be that I am a law abiding citizen and you aren't..... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
   #25  

MossRoad

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I prefer to say "wasn't a law abiding citizen" as I am now... until I get caught again. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Let's just say that I have decided that if I'm going to tell my kids not to do stuff, and to behave a certain way, I should be willing to do as I say, also. YIKES! I can't believe I just said that. Mom and dad are having the last laugh after all. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif
 
   #26  

txdon

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<font color="blue"> "...it appears that he fought the governments attempt to restrict this area and has won." </font>- Junkman

WHAT??????

HE WON WHAT????

Two people died.

Would those two people still be alive if he would have lost?

Would you WIN if you got the government to remove our ROPS?
 
  
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</font><font color="blue" class="small">( <font color="blue"> "...it appears that he fought the governments attempt to restrict this area and has won." </font>- Junkman

WHAT??????

HE WON WHAT????

Two people died.

Would those two people still be alive if he would have lost?

Would you WIN if you got the government to remove our ROPS?

)</font>

Don't understand what you "beef" is with me, because I didn't write the quote that you have attributed to me. Possibly that is the problem today...... people either don't understand what they read, nor do they remember who said what. I can get into enough trouble on my own....... please stop attributing things to me that I am not responsible for. /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif
As for the people that died in the water, if you had read that article correctly, you would have realized that those two events had happened prior to the fence and that was the reason for the fence. If the fence was a good idea, then the agency that heard the rescuers pleas to remove the fence, probably wouldn't have removed it.
 
   #28  

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Junkman I have no beef with you. I got the quote from your post #688304. Maybe you and I are thinking about two different things. When you said "he fought the government attempts to restrict the area", I though the restrictions you were talking about were the fence and the swimming ban.

I did read the article right. He got the fences removed and the ban relaxed in 1999. The two deaths happen this year in April. I can see how you thought it was the other way around because they just say April and do not say April 2005 but because they do not use a month when they say 1999 and start a new paragraph and say in April as in the current year..... that article was poorly written it can be taken either way ..... oh well...../forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
 
   #29  

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<font color="blue"> I can get into enough trouble on my own....... </font>

Got that right!! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
   #30  

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So here's my question. Don't some states have "Good Samaritan" laws that require a person to give assistance if in a position to possibly do so? It's like a Catch-22. Stand and do nothing, you can be prosecuted for not helping. Jump in and help, you may get prosecuted for attempting something you're not authorized to do. Whatever happened to common sense? How do you decide? I guess sometimes you just gotta follow your conscience and do what you feel is right.

I think another "Good Samaritan" law exempts a rescuer from civil liability if (s)he attempts a rescue but doesn't succeed, but I think that's only certain states. If someone has a cardiac arrest and you give CPR, but they don't make it, should his family be able to sue you? What if you know CPR but decide not to try because you don't want to be sued. Should they be able to sue you for not trying? Too much suing going on for ridiculous reasons. I think anyone should be able to file a suit if he thinks he has a case. The problem is, judges ought to throw the stupid ones out as soon as they read the petition and they don't do it.
 
  
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The Good Samaritan laws protect the average person for providing a service in good faith in an attempt to save that persons life. If the person administering the aid is a trained professional, such as a doctor, nurse, EMT, etc. they are usually not protected by the Good Samaritan Laws. If you stand by idle and do nothing, there is no possible criminal prosecution that I know of. I don't believe that you are obligated under any circumstances to offer aid just because you are there.
 
  
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My appologies..... my mistake....... didn't read that post that carefully..... must be another senior moment...... What were we discussing... /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif That's right.... Beef..... it must be Mad Cow Disease..... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 

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   #33  

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Junkman, I think your take on the Good Samaritan is correct ...but i vaguely remember a TV show or movie in which someone got in trouble with the law for not taking action and standing by idly. I sure don't know if anywhere in the US has such a law, but this strange twist in the plot made me wonder if a law like this is on the books somewhere.
 
   #34  

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Good point Tom,
In ky you can be arrested for "failure to stop and render aid" when encountering a traffic accident, if you don't stop and offer to help.
It is a law, I think NC has a similiar law.
Ben
 
  
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The problem with laws that require someone to render aid is that they might not be qualified to render aid and the aid that they render might be more harmful than no aid at all. One other problem that exists is that during some natural disasters, people rendering aid still aren't protected by the Good Samaritan laws. Here is a good example..... (read)
 
   #36  

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<font color="blue"> "In ky you can be arrested for "failure to stop and render aid" when encountering a traffic accident, if you don't stop and offer to help."
</font>-slowrev

Slowrev, Texas penal code:

Sec. 550.023. Duty to Give Information and Render Aid.

The operator of a vehicle involved in an accident resulting in the injury or death of a person or damage to a vehicle that is driven or attended by a person shall: ......

3) provide any person injured in the accident reasonable assistance, including transporting or making arrangements for transporting the person to a physician or hospital for medical treatment if it is apparent that treatment is necessary, or if the injured person requests the transportation.

Notice: in Texas you actually have to be INVOLVED in the accident not just encountering a traffic accident to be required to render aid. That aid could just be calling 911.
 
   #37  

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Here's what the rescuer says (taken from today's Austin-American Statesman):

Had there been divers in the area, ready to take over, I would have gladly moved aside, yet I saw no rescue divers at the scene. Having been underwater for 10 minutes already, Duamni may or may not have survived long enough under there for a rescue response team to get him out alive. I knew and hoped that maybe I had a chance there to help him, and I stand by the decision that I made that day.

I can only hope that if under slightly different circumstances — that if I were in dire need or trouble — some good Samaritan would come to my aid. I have been helped by others in the past, and I feel that it is my obligation and duty to do the same.

I still have a criminal charge hanging over my head, a brand new police record and legitimate concerns about how this will affect my professional career.
 
   #38  

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This is a good thread and I really had to resist the urge to stir the pot yesterday but now I am gonna have to jump in with both feet.

Let's cut to the chase here:
I do not want to live where it is illegal for someone to render aid to me.

Think about that for a minute.

Do you want to live somewhere where it is illegal for a "non-professional" to render aid to you?

I understand that someone could get hurt trying to save my life if I got in the middle of a bad situation. And it should be that persons right to choose whether or not to risk their life to help me.

I will also agree that there are a lot of situations where people have put themselves into a situation that they have no training for, such as in MossRoad's excellent post about water rescues that have turned into water recoveries. And I am sure that a lot of would be rescuers have been killed trying to do the good thing. But I still say that it is my choice as to whether I will risk my life to help someone or not.

I'll take my chances with a good samaritan (hopefully with some common sense) that is at the scene over professionals that are fifteen minutes away any day.

In a bad situation, fifteen minutes is one heck of a long time.
 
   #39  

MossRoad

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If he was under water for 10 minutes, he would have been dead. In the water for 10 minutes. Possibly, yes. Under water for 10 minutes, no.

I still think it will come out that his actions after the rescue are what really got him in hot water(pardon the pun).

What gets me is that the area is known to be a problem. Kind of like a backyard swimming pool. I forget what they call it, but there is a term for attractions like that and that is why they have to be fenced in by state law(at least here, in Indiana). I'm surprised, with the deaths and other problems that have occurred in this water, that it hasn't been at least posted that anyone entering the water will face legal action.
 
   #40  

slowrev

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TxDon,
The way it has been taught in drivers ed, etc in KY is that if you OBSERVE an accident you are rerquired to stop and offer aid. Again this could now be as little as calling 911, but you do not have to be involved in the accident. If you are involved and leave you can be charged with leaving the scene of an accident, or hit and run, a felony I believe.
Ben
 
   #41  

Hondo

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Actually, the victim really was underwater for about ten minutes. He'd found an air pocket (this was at the site of an old mill) and was able to breathe. Otherwise...
 
   #42  

MikePA

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<font color="blue"> I forget what they call it, but there is a term for attractions like that </font>
Attractive nuisance.

There is normally no particular care required of property owners to safeguard trespassers from harm, but an attractive nuisance is an exception. An attractive nuisance is any inherently hazardous object or condition of property that can be expected to attract children to investigate or play (for example, construction sites and discarded large appliances). The doctrine imposes upon the property owner either the duty to take precautions that are reasonable in light of the normal behavior of young children--a much higher degree of care than required toward adults--or the same care as that owed to "invitees"--a higher standard than required toward uninvited, casual visitors.
 
   #43  

NevadaSmith

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Having been on the fire dept. and involved in several MAJOR wild land (forrest) fires in calif. and nev. and other "rescues". I have first hand experience in "good doer's" (people saving animals, houses etc). On the fire dept. we made a choice to put our lives in the line for others. We do so with proper training and understanding of all the risks involved. This training lessons our risk of loosing our lifes. Most "civilians" do not have this training and operate more on instinct than skill. Most wind up as victims themselves. Some put the "rescuers" in further danger with their actions. When we arrive on scene of a rescue of "one" person, we do not want to be distracted by those trying to help, or becoming a "second" victim, or worse, making us the second victim. Doing so usually results in the loss of the "first" victim too.

In one case, we were called to a 'water rescued" at an old ****. Originally there was one victim who dove in and did not surface. A second "rescuer" dove in and hit the same underground rock as the first and lost his life. When we arrived, family and friends wanted us to dive in and "rush" to the rescue (like the seond guy). When we did not, we were pelted with rocks and angry words. It sucked to say the least.

So....when the responsible people arrive, they will make an "educated" opinion as to the value of your help, and at what risk you are in providing it. Most cases it will be accepted without question. Other times, you might be asked to step aside. If so....just please step aside. Molify your ego, the ego of the cop or firefighter (or whatever) and accept what you did in your own heart and move on. Nobody has the time for a "fight" when a rescue is involved.

It sounds cold...but we often say "if a person put themselves in harms way, its not worth your life to save theirs".

My two drachma's
 
   #44  

MossRoad

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Sure, I agree that if you want to be able to help someone you should be able to, etc... but if you become another victim and end up taking away time from the rescuers having to save you AND the original victim, you end up causing more problems than there originally were.

The guy was a strong swimmer and thought he could help. He probably did help. The guy he helped said he would have died had he not been helped. That's all fine and good and I hope someone like that is around if I or my loved ones are in a precarious situation.

However, rescue personell were there and threw him a bouy and he threw it back and swam to the other side of the river. What does that tell us about the guy?
 
   #45  

MossRoad

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<font color="blue">Attractive nuisance. </font>

That's the term I was looking for. Thanks, Mike.

BTW... in my youth, that's also what the ladys called me. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
  
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#46  
OP
J

Junkman

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</font><font color="blue" class="small">( ...............
However, rescue personell were there and threw him a bouy and he threw it back and swam to the other side of the river. What does that tell us about the guy? )</font>

I don't recall any of the articles saying that rescue people were there. I do recall it saying that someone threw him a buoy, but that could have been anyone, and the man knowing the river, might have felt that the buoy would be a hindrance in this situation. Without more facts we will have to wait the outcome of this. Everything that I have read tells me that he is a stand up guy that cares about his fellow human being and that he is being persecuted for doing so.
 
   #47  

Sigarms

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Before anyone "flames" away at my post

In my "previous life"

I did some "diving" in the Army (deepest dive was 280', decompression of course), and in cilvilian life am a certified divemaster (which includes search and resuce/recovery).

Consider myself a "decent" whitewater kayaker, have done the Upper Gauley over 5,000 CFS, North fork of the Payette around 2k, fish creek in Idaho over 15k (one of the highest runs of that time in the late 90's), and some"pretty hard" steep creeks in W.V, upstate N.Y, Vermont, Colorado, Idaho and Montana (highest waterfall was 37'). Overall about 120 different "hard" rivers consider by most to be class 4 and up.

Also a river guide.

I have saved two people from death (entrapment) on the river (one guy had to be taken out by helicopter, only way).

Sort of my "credentials" so to speak.

Now,

When I worked on the river, firemen and police were always the "worst" customers.

Most fire departments have no clue what a "swiftwater resue" is, even when they "practice".

Most civilian resue divers are SEAL wantabes.

There are people who do know what they are doing pertaining to water rescues, but they are few and far.

On that same note, there are some police officers who have no clue about the operation of their firearm, and would be lucky to be able to hit the broad side of a barn if they tried to shoot at one.

This hits a nerve because I came upon a "scene" where two inexperienced kayakers drowned, and was informed by the rescue people at the scene not to intervene in a "recovery attempt" on the two bodies. To make a long story short, two firemen (who were "rescue divers") DIED while trying to recover the bodies.

You would be surprised how quick a long rope can kill in moving water.
 
   #48  

Tom_H

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</font><font color="blue" class="small">( ... i vaguely remember a TV show or movie in which someone got in trouble with the law for not taking action and standing by idly.)</font>

Seinfeld, last episode of the series. I remember reading at the time that some states have such laws. Sounds like KY is one of them. Still sounds like you're d***ed if you do and d***ed if you don't.

Several times I've read in the last few years of guys pulling victims out of car crashes while fuel was spilling and getting them out just before the vehicle exploded, and before any official rescue personnel arrived. Thankfully, the law treated them as heros instead of arresting them.

On the other hand, I've also heard of crash victims who had cracked neck vertebrae, but no spinal cord damage. When a civilian rescuer pulled the victim out, it caused the head to move, damaging the spinal cord and causing permanent paralysis. Don't know whether any gas was leaking from this vehicle or not. I suppose if it was, pulling him out was reasonable. If no gas and victim was breathing, he should've been left until rescue personnel arrived.

Maybe emergency first aid, CPR, and related issues should be a required course in high school. So many high schools require community service now. Such a requirement could enable citizens to make better informed "community EMERGENCY service" decisions if faced with these kinds of situations at a future point in life.
 
   #49  

MossRoad

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No one should flame you for the truth. Many law enforcement and fire personell are not trained in moving water rescue. There is an excellent school in South Bend, IN for training. Rive Rescue School

Toss somebody a rope and pull them in, fine. Toss somebody a rope, tell them to tie it on or it wraps around their body and then the other end gets hung up on something and watch them drown as the water pushes them under and you and 3 other guys aren't strong enough to pull them out(I've seen it happen twice. The victim's lived without damage, fortunately).

As to people not knowing how serious this stuff is, I think the police did know how serious it was and that's why they wanted the guy out of there. They have no idea if this guy is trained, can do it, is drunk or sober, etc... I also think that is why the police didn't jump in. They knew it was serious and they could not help.

While it is admirable that the guy didn't give it a second thought as to helping the victim, it is also admirable that the police (or whoever it was) did not want him to become a second victim. Don't fault the police on this one. In my opinion, they did the right thing. They do the same thing at fires. You run inside after they tell you to stay out, you get in trouble.

For anyone that is interested in reading about rescue personell becoming victims, read this .PDF file titled "The Drowning Machine". It is a tragic tale of two rafters getting caught in a current below a low-head dam and the awful events that followed. There are many stories about this and other rescuers losing their lives trying to help others.
 
   #50  

tomnky

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I have to agree Paul.

Seems to me some "Common Sense" should be applied in the aftermath of all this, Regrettably there seems to a " Short Supply" of it available anymore. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif
 
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